Posted By Martin R. Bessant This is a continuation of the original thread which can be found at www.iosh.co.uk/index.cfm...m=1&thread=16335&page=1. What about TechSPs? Posted by PTH on Wednesday, 16 November 2005 at 22:48 Over the last couple of weeks I have read a couple of threads refering to the benefits of chartered status. While I don't for one moment want to knock my peers who will acieve CMIOSH, do any members who currently hold TechSP status feel they are getting a bit of a 'bum deal' out of this? Approx 18 months ago I passed my Dip 1 and was chuffed to achieve TechSP status. I now feel I have been effectively down graded (because I passed my Gen Cert in 1998, I could now apply for the new TechIOSH status anyway) to a level that in real terms is lower than GradIOSH (someone who walks out of Uni with a degree and no experience) just because a)I can't afford to pay for my next level qualifications myself or b) don't work for an employer prepared to finance my further education. I apologise if this seems like a bit of a rant, but I do feel like the goal posts are being moved again and all the focus seems to be on CMIOSH, while TechSPs (soon to be TechIOSH) are being overlooked. What do my fellow TechSPs think?

Posted By Brett Day I did recieve an e-mail from someone regarding an enquiry re IIRSM, as a result of the former thread, my e-mail crashed and I have lost your address, if you cae to re-send I will reply. Regards Brett

Posted By Stupendous Man Having posted to the original thread I can understand why the moderator has decided to lock it and start again. I, and I hope all other posters who feel let down by IOSH at this point in time, will at least give them credit for allowing this thread to continue when they could have simply blocked all postings of a 'questioning' nature. The continuation of this thread can only be in the interests of both disaffected TechSPs and IOSH as an organisation. It gives us an opportunity to put our views across. Yes, it would be nice to see some input from IOSH, but I am sure that this issue will require some serious thought before a response is given. At the end of the day, IOSH do have some time (until renewals are due) to try and 'win back' both myself and others who have stated their intentions to leave the organisation. There are no immediate fixes, and I would hate for a resolution to move the problem elsewhere rather than address it full-on.

Posted By Philip Roberts Martin, Sorry if my lack of understanding of computer technology led me to sound off at your closing of the original thread and I apologise for any upset which may have been caused. I had experienced no difficulty in opening the previous thread. I still stand by my feeling that IOSH need to reply to some of the questions asked if only to say that they are considering all the points raised and will reply to some of the criticism in due time. regards Phil Roberts

Posted By Brian McMillan I note that one of the other safety organisations reports an increase in membership of 40% in the last five years. Published statistics for the last year would seem to suggest that the monthly intake of members at the higher grades have increased by up to 90% at certain times. Figures for Associates appear to remain static throughout. This might indicate that people with qualifications that are acceptable for full membership of one body but not another are indeed switching their allegiance. I wonder how these statistics compare to those of IOSH for the same period (Cannot find membership statistics on the site map)? Is a rise in one groups membership at the cost of a reduction in another’s or is it a case of having a Macdonalds sited next to Kentucky Fried Chicken where inevitably both will prosper with a healthy (or unhealthy) respect for each others individualism? What happens next in the safety arena - Will we see the Chartered International Institute of Risk and Safety Management appear on the horizon or will it be CROSPA or CBSC or the breakaway body some suggest? If things do not change they could well stay as they are.

Posted By Liam Nolan Maybe it was necessary to close the original thread due to the size of the postings to the thread (is this the largest thread ever on the site?). Just wanted to highlight the following. in the original thread there were 118 postings, with 4300 views. this is quite a lot and shows the level of interest in the thread. One reason why the thread should have been left run under the original thread is that now anyone that has posted to the original one will not recieve notification that new postings have been made. This will possibly slow the interest in the thread. I too would be interested in an official response to the issues that are central to the TechSP (and by the way, I was told these are post nominals and can be used - is TechIOSH going to be the same?). As I said in an earlier rushed post (note my spelling mistakes in the original) I too contacted various personnel here in Ireland and in the UK to voice my concerns on the way the new structure was going to affect me personally and others at the same level (TechSP). I was told (by various people that were or should have been in the know) that the new structure was designed to be avantageous to the majority of non corporate members and that I, unfortunatly was one of the few that would not benefit from it(after explaining my position)t - but basicly it was hard cheese. (this was all before the vote). I was told that my concerns were being brought to the attention of the committee at the time, were they? in light of what George W. has said in earlier posts. I still can't see how the new structure is beneficial to any non corporate member. I just can't see it! I would have achieved Corporate membership next May if the structure had not changed, or at least if grandfather rights had been awarded to members already on the road to attaining the academic requirements for coporate membership (as I was - is this selfish in my part?). Now I will have to wait a further 2 years at least to go for the level above Grad IOSH. This seems rediculous to me. I have the required work experiance, I am doing CPD for Tech IOSH requirments - because I have to, however my academic studies for the GradIOSH will cover my CPD without recording anything else as CPD (I have been told this). What really sticks in my craw is that any CPD or IPD done before the attaining of GradIOSH is usless, worthless, may well not have been done (For the purposes of IOSH not employment or knowledge wise). Again I think we should officially contact the relevent persons and ask, no demand that something be done about these issues that concern us. I would further propose that this is our organisation and that it should facilatate the gathering of a consensus on the issues affecting TechSP status, using central funds (our subscriptions). In other word post out some kind of request for information from TechSP's ONLY on the issue cocerning us. will they do this? I think not. It does not have to cost any money as there is enough corespondance from IOSH to add a second peice of paper. Another way could be to put notification into the SHP magazine about have an online gathering of information on how pleased we are with the way the TechSP's are being treated. I don't know how many members (I see numbers in this thread) are disgruntled, but we are all familiar with statistics and the sampling that is done on surveys is a reflection on the total population affected (etc. etc). Therefore, the powers that be should be taking note that there is extreme displeasure on our level as to the issue of the organisations structure and how it is 'forced' (because we had no vote) on us. So for those of you that have said it is only a 'few' or a small minority that are unhappy I say you are wrong. But lets do what I said above and have a survey of TechSP members. I bet you the answer will be an overwhelmingly huge NO to being happy with the new structure for TechSP's. Liam

Posted By Nigel Evans Just keeping it short TechIOSH is a load of w*nk. I stayed as Associate which was good enough for me as a H&S Consultant but IOSH are trying to force me to use thier w*nky new letters my closing my IOSH associate status and transferring me the the new status. Also not satified with that, having paid thousands of pounds to run the IOSH courses and each year paying to renew my license which have included the updates, they have now re-witten the course and advise me that I now have to purchase it again or I will lose my licence!! I think a legal challenge would be in order or better still they could stick their new course and I'll run the passport training (as I have started to) instead.

Posted By Max Bancroft Thanks for that Mike. I've often wondered about joining IISRM but, of course, IOSH has been the major organistation for quite a while (now confirmed by Chartered staturs organisationally and individually) and I've never really felt the need. Would you care to expand further on your experience and what further benefits there are - not only to the individual but also in terms of making workplaces healthier and safer?

Posted By Anne Smart Posted on behalf of Neil Budworth. It is great to see this forum being used as a place where live issues are being actively debated and where members of Council, elected officers and IOSH staff can respond to concerns and can account for the decisions made by Council. I would like to discuss, briefly I promise, the concerns of the members expressed on this forum about the changes to the membership grades, concerns that IOSH is becoming 'elitist' and the role that the changes to national standards have played in the development of the new membership structure. I understand that some may feel that they have been 'downgraded' by the transition from TechSp to Tech IOSH. These changes were not made lightly and were extensively debated at IOSH's Council of Management. The fact is that the changes are a result of changes made to the national standards. We have to reflect these standards in our membership structure. (Incidentally, thanks to Jay Joshi for his excellent postings on this issue). Where we have flexibility we have chosen to try to make the Institution more inclusive. For example, the fact that it is possible to enter the Tech IOSH grade with the NEBOSH general certificate and five years experience is a recognition of the excellent work that is done by this important IOSH group. Let me assure you, as a fellow practitioner, I never underestimate or neglect the input that experienced people with the NEBOSH certificate or the Diploma part 1 make. I work with a number of people who fall into this category and I have the utmost respect for the work that they do, as do my Council colleagues. As such, I can assure you that their concerns are always considered during Council debates. The recent changes have also given us the chance to include non-Chartered members on Council for the first time. We have also improved the voting rights of non-Chartered members. These changes are here to stay. I am sorry to read that some members are questioning their membership of IOSH and I hope that they will reconsider. IOSH now has a new sense of vibrancy and is more influential than ever before. We are representing the views of the membership routinely at the highest levels of government and we are being heard. I have been elected to represent your views and I am happy to respond directly to any member who wishes to contact me via email at president@iosh.co.uk (there will be a delay as I will be out of the country on business for a week). Best Regards, Neil Budworth, IOSH President

Posted By Mike Craven Max Not entirely certain that it's appropriate to "sell" the IIRSM on the IOSH site!! but whilst accepting that IOSH is - quite rightly in my opinion - accepted as being the "premier" safety professional organisation, I would comment as follows: The contribution made by IIRSM is best summarised in it's own mission statement, "The IIRSM will strive to provide its members with support and information to help them practice and promote the highest professional standards in risk and safety management in the workplace. The Institute will also continually endeavour to enhance the reputation of its members and champion the cause of the risk, safety and health management profession. " For me personally, I have found my individual membership of IIRSM extremely useful. One of the best and most useful events I have attended in recent years was a seminar/conference on "Affective Safety Management" run jointly by IIRSM and the RoSPA affilated, Manchester Occ' Health & Safety Group - another worthwhile and useful association to belong to. The monthly British Safety Council publication "Safety Management" has provided me with a number of articles and pieces of information which I have been able to use in my own workplace. (Safety Management does often repeat what one finds in the Practitioner, but I do find that some of the articles/ideas appear in a format that is sligtly more practical in terms of being able to put them into practice in your own workplace. IIRSM is of course linked to the British Safety Council and I first used some very useful information from the BSC in a Health & Safety Audit project I was involved in, as a TU Safety Rep, about 10 years ago. Hope this is of interest. Mike

Posted By Kevin Bailey I also have recently completed the NEBOSH Dip 1 and was also very pleased to achieve the enhanced status. The amount of time and effort at nights and weekends to achieve the credit that i received was deminished when i realised that only about a third of my course actually passed. I wonder if the pass rate would have been higher if we had all just resat the NEBOSH Cert at the new level 3?

Posted By Max Bancroft Hi Jane - just to re-iterate that I got very good support from my local Branch and its members inlcuding Corporate Members & Fellows as I progressed from Associate to TechSP to IOSH. In terms of on-going support, Branch and District are excellent fora for members (of all grades) to ask questions, discuss problems etc. While the work of Branches and Districts is primarily that of the local volunteers, IOSH HQ gives them a good back-up so what you see if the outcome of a team effort invlving the whole of IOSH. I also find the IOSH Technical Information service very useful to me as a SHP on the ground facing a wide variety of questions. BTW: I wonder if sometimes when people refer to IOSH they mean our paid officials at HQ or our national elected officials or the totality of the organisation?

Posted By Peter Longworth Robert "Like all posters to public forums such as this I know that it is eminently possible to register under a variety of names and post on a thread many times as different people so who is to know how many individuals actually posted here." I don't want to hi-jack this thread so perhaps you could e-mail me and let me know what that is all about.

Posted By peter gotch Will the disaffected who join IIRSM still use this chat forum as their body of current choice has nothing remotely similar? As happens I am a member of both organisations. Regards, Peter

Posted By Jonathan Breeze IT, As far as I can see, that is a very fair summary (subject to clearing up what further voting rights non-corporates have). This is a genuine question and not at all toungue in cheek, but have you ever considered standing for Council? I suspect that the council and organisation as a whole would benefit from your robust style if you were voted on.

Posted By ian milne So, another thread after another thread. Let me advise you of my experience and then see if it encourages others. I started off doing QA (minor procedures to full systems) like many others. I began to get bored after about 8 years and was looking for something more engaging. I was offered to assist in writing HSE procedures and then offered to become more involved. I joined IIRSM as IOSH was toooooo difficult at the time. I was then promoted to a QA & HSE position which (due to bounds of enthusiasm and efficiency I tend to portray) I was forced by default to consider IOSH. I sat my formal QA and environmental (not hygiene) audit certs and then NEBOSH Cert. This still only allowed me to have a lower IOSH designation which I still never advertised, but I did start attending the branch meetings. I then through a few new employers, met other IOSH branch members who encouraged me to do CPD (it might be handy in future). This gave me additional knowledge that was very useful. I then decided to sit my NEBOSH dip Pt 1 and IOSH decided to split the diploma into two (right in front of me - the nerve of it). I sat that and eventually passed (theory and lectures were never my strong point). I began to get hungary for upgrade about a year later, still hiding my IOSH designations. I decided to sit my part 2 (just as IOSH converged the diploma again - a pattern here). I realised the corporate changes being planned by IOSH (I voiced my concerns at the local branch meetings - how many go, thats what they are there for) would knock me further down the rankings and I was left in no doubt that man nor beast would stop the process. I then decided that I had to do the NVQ 4 route (self financed and no support from employers) to achieve the MIOSH grade. Doing it was brilliant - the knowledge you already posess begins to flow and you have no alternative but to learn more for your gaps. A short period later, new employer, new wage structure and 2nd submission of CPD, I await news on CMIOSH. Lessons learnt: You don't need to like it, but like the law, you certainly have to lump it. I consider myself better prepared now and confident than I ever was to carry out the tasks sufficiently. I really don't see IOSH changing anything so far down the line - do you. And yes, I really do feel for those in the ranks and worry that we will lose fresh blood in the next two years. Hopefully we don't turn into a 'Uni graduates' only organisation where we don't have colleagues who have been through life and don't just appear with 'any degree'. Knowledge is good but so is experience. Unfortunately, companies often abuse graduates in the first years and many don't come near the HSE world as they need to pay off there bank accounts.

Posted By Paul Hay There seems to be an increasing number of rhetorical and sniping posts on this thread. My take on it is that most (and you can call it a small number if you like - although I have never seen a thread with as much interest as this one) of the posts have been from current TechSPs who don't want to criticise or knock those who have achieved CMIOSH (several of my colleagues who I have the utmost respect for have achieved it), but do feel that their qualifications and ,probably more importantly, their experience is being ignored. I began my career in the mid nineties as an industrial and construction plant instructor. Gradually got more involved with the safety side of it and took my Gen Cert (1 years study by distance learning for the most part at evenings and weekends) in the late 90's. Was then fortunate to get a position with a company who saw past my qualifications and valued my experience and took my Dip 1 a couple of years ago and was awarded TechSP. Will be starting my next level qualification next year, which with a bit of luck and hard work will have passed by this time next year. Then I can apply for GradIOSH (the same level as a 21/22 year old student who has just passed their relevant degree - and good luck to them!) I then will have to do another 2 years before I can apply for CMIOSH - despite the fact that by then it will be some 12 years since I first got involved in H&S and 5 since passing my Dip 1 (I think I will be about ready for retirement by then!!) If these are the rules then I will play by them and when I finally achieve my goal it will be all the sweeter - but surely this demonstrates why people like me feel a little cheesed off. Sincerest apologies for the life story - available in hard back soon!

Posted By Jane Watts Robert, This isn't about 'sniping' at anyone! If the branch were as good as it's members then why not listen to all the disgruntled opinions of people with regard to the change of membership structure?

Posted By Max Bancroft "If the branch were as good as it's members then why not listen to all the disgruntled opinions of people with regard to the change of membership structure? " I've been Branch Secretary for 3/4 years now and was on my Branch Exec for a year before that - in other words during the whole period of discussion, decision and transition. We had Hazel Harvey attend to explain why IOSH would need to make the changes also IOSH Presidents at the AGM saying the same plus updates at regular intervals from our Branch Education Development Adviser feeding back from meetings she attended at The Grange. All written up in the minutes which are emailed out to all Branch members who request them plus being posted on the Branch website. There was very little feedback and certainly not this kind of disgruntlememt. Did I miss something?

Posted By Sarah Darlington I like a lot of others will be affected by this change in a big way, especially as a lot of jobs in our industry want us to be MIOSH.. I have worked in Health and Safety over 12 years and started with the NEBOSH certificate. When I went to do the Dipolma, 6 months later, it had been changed so did the conversion and got NEBOSH Part 1 - so became a TechSP. Following various job and area moves finally found a company to fund my Part 2 late last year but was advised to do the NEBOSH level 4 (now regraded to level 6). I also signed up to do voluntary CPD in June 2004 with current cycle closing June 2006. I, the same as everyone else, will be graded (down in my opinion) at TechIOSH. When I get the new NEBOSH Diploma I can go to GradIOSH but then will have to wait another 2 years before moving up again. Before the changes I was hoping to complete the Diploma and get MIOSH quite soon after especially with the experience I have in the field. Now it will probably be another 3-4 years. Will this change affect our job prospects as some employers pick up on the buzz words and titles but do not understand exactly what they are asking for. If you haven't got the title you can't get the job!! Is MIOSH still open for applications and can you get it just with experience?