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#1 Posted : 13 January 2006 09:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Joe Ridley
Hi there,

I am hoping someone can help here. Our company has engaged the services of the local council to carry out repair work on the roof of one of our lesiure centres. The council has subsequently engaged the services of a company to verify that the contractor employed by the council to do this work has all the necessary documentation in place prior to carrying out the work.

The manager of the centre has expressed concerns regarding if a fall were to occur, who would be responsible? The manager has been told by the council he would not be responsible. Is this correct?

Would I be correct to say that acccess to the roof should be safe and any areas on the roof (including guard rails, anchorage points etc) is the responsibility of the manager. Then from there the work being carried out is the responsibility of the contractor

Any help or advice is very much appreciated

Cheers

Joe
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#2 Posted : 13 January 2006 09:34:00(UTC)
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Posted By AlB
It's the leisure centre's owner or representative who is responsible. This may well be the manager of the site. Technically speaking, the manager has requested a contractor to work on the roof. It is the manager's responsibility to ensure that the contractor slected is competent to do the work and will work safely. If the contractor is working unsafely, then the manager, as the client, has the right to ask the contractor to stop work.

The Manager needs to ask the contractor for his insurance document, method statement a nd safe working practices and needs to be sure that the contractor has identified all of the relevant risks involved with the work and has taken suitable precautions to eliminate or reduce those risks.
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#3 Posted : 13 January 2006 10:24:00(UTC)
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Posted By Joe Ridley
Hi there,

Thanks for getting back to me. I agree the manager should have copies of the relevant documents. I think what I am trying to establish here is the company has employed the council to act on their behalf to arrange and carry out the work. The council have employed a contractor to do the job and have assured the manager all their safety documentation is in place. Does the manager still need to have copies of these? He has been told by the council he will not be responsible should an accident occur.Has he been given wrong advice here from the council?

Cheers

Joe

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#4 Posted : 13 January 2006 10:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Salus
Joe, following on from AIB remarks, do not forget to monitor the work being carried out for any safe or unsafe working practises and record your findings.Also if you find they are working safely and doing a good job make sure you tell them and there line manager / s
Ensure, good induction (first aid,fire & emergency procedures,welfare,where operatives are allowed and not allowed to go,site rules, parking, storage, any hot work and that any fall provention and scafolding is inspected by a competant person
before use / after any sustantial addition, alteration or dismantling, after anything that may have affected its integrity and every seven days. Make up your own inspection record with these headings,
name & address of yourselves / location / descrirtion of the place of work / date & time of inspection / details of any matter ID that could give rise to a risk to the H & S of a person / action taken as a result of those details / details of any further action required / name & position of the person inspecting.
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#5 Posted : 13 January 2006 12:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mike Draper
Joe

If I remember correctly from case law, if there were an incident and a prosecution followed and the manager of the centre tried to say "but I sub-contracted the work to X and according to this contract they are responsible", the judge would politely tell him to put the contract away and ask the manager exactly what HE did to ensure the safety of the contractor, his staff and any visitors. In that respect, it is entirely possible that the manager has been poorly advised by the local authority.

However, the question to answer first is, who is responsible for providing and maintaining a safe facility? If this is the responsibility of your company and the manager of the centre concerned has the power to discharge this responsibility, then yes - he is in the frame.

The contractor will need to be supervised, so unless the council are providing someone on site to check that the contractor works to their own method statement, etc, then the manager will definitely need a copy and to go through it with the contractor before they start work.

Don't forget that the manager is still responsible for safeguarding his own workers and public users of the centre from the activities of the contractor.

So I think I'm generally in agreement with your own assessment. Does that help?

Mike
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#6 Posted : 13 January 2006 12:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By steve e ashton
Joe,

Based on the limited information available in your initial posting, I venture to disagree with your previous respondents. As a responsible organisation, your leisure centre owners / operators have appointed a competent third party (the local authority) to manage and deliver essential maintenance works. The Leisure Centre Manager has been assured by the competent people appointed that the work will be done safely, and they are satisfied the contractors coming on to site will be able to do the work safely.

The Leisure Centre Manager is employed to manage the centre - he is not expected to have detailed technical knowledge of any construction / maintenance procedures. That is why the organisation have appointed a technically competent person (the council) to manage the works. That is it as far as the Centre Manager needs to be concerned - His responsibility is to ensure someone competent does the work. He has done this by appointing a competent agent. He doesn't need to follow and duplicate everything the agent does on his behalf - so no, he doesn't need to have copies of all the contractors documentation.

A good managing agent will appoint someone to oversee and monitor works on site - this person should introduce him/herself to the Centre Manager. If the Manager doesn't hear anything before the Contractors arrive - then he may legitimately start to worry...

IF during the course of the works, he or his staff see something that is very obviously of serious and imminent danger that any member of the public ought to know is dangerous - THEN he would need to act. But no-one would expect a Leisure Centre Manager to know the details of safe Construction practice (eg how high before toe boards, how wide working platforms, how long fall arrest tails etc etc.)

I believe your manager has been correctly advised. Your org. has apopointed someone else to take the load, let them get on with it. Otherwise, why bother appointing in the first place?

Hope this ramble is sufficiently clear to explain where I'm coming from - I'm laid up at present taking a prescription medication with distinctly odd side effects..

Steve
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#7 Posted : 13 January 2006 14:30:00(UTC)
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Posted By ME
Steve is right (sort of!). This is a grey area where everyone has some responsibility. As manager of the site they are not expected to know what are the correct methods of work but they are expected to satisfy themselves that the contractor is competent to do the job and to stop any obviously unsafe activities as they occur.
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#8 Posted : 13 January 2006 19:23:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Joe,

The prime contract is with the council to do the work and therefore it is THEIR job to assess the subcontractor and supervise their work. Make sure they fulfill the contract requirements and do these things. If the job falls within CDM you need to review the matter. In the event of failure it is the council who must hold the can!!!

Bob
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#9 Posted : 13 January 2006 19:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Frank Hallett
Hi Joe [& Mike]

I think Mike is referring to the "McArdle" case where no-one really took charge of anything and there was a great deal of finger-pointing during the subsequent prosecution after a sub-contractor fell off the roof and everyone got to contribute something to the public purse. This is quite old now and must be assessed in relation to the Work at Height & MHSW Regs - and CDM if applicable.

You don't identify whether the Leisure Centre will continue in use or not during the work and that means that it isn't possible to identify whether CDM will apply or not from the info provided. However, on the worst case basis that the Centre will probably remain open; I offer the following:-

My opinion is that the Leisure Centre [as the controller of the premises] has an over-arching duty to ensure that the work is done in accordance with the relevant legislation.

The Principal Contractor [the Council] have duties to ensure that the work is conducted in accordance with the Leisure Centre instructions and controls.

The PC appointed Consultant will be caught by MHSW Regs 7 & 21 and be as liable as if an employee of the PC; with the PC liable for anything that the Consultant gets wrong - both in H&S and Contract law.

The PC will be responsible for managing the actual Contractor engaged to do the work; but, as the Leisure Centre is still occupied by the original occupier, they will retain effective control and be responsible over-all.

Ain't life fun?

Frank Hallett
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