Posted By J Knight This is part of the picture that sees the NHS responsible for about 3,000 preventable deaths a year, which has been the subject of previous threads on this forum. There could be a need for a specialist branch of HSE to investigate this kind of thing, as 'medical' deaths often have very complex causes, but the fact that so many deaths seem to escape any sort of sanction or even independent investigation seems indefensible, John

Posted By JWG Whilst the NHS are trying to encourage Drs to report incidents and to get play active role in the hospital systems, punishment is far from there minds. They have what they call ' a fair blaime principal' in place. Although un-official, at the end of the day the senior consultants still run the hospital and do what they want (because they can). I presume the HSE will not inforce clinical incidents with section 3 because how are they going to enforce an area where they are not compatent. To draft in expert witnesses will cost a fortune. In my opinion the only serious way to reduce incidents to have strong internal disciplinary procedures for clinicians that are knowingly breeching there trust policies and professional guidelines. It is unfortunate that it only seems that when the incident is extreemly serious then action is taken (although few and far between).

Posted By steven bentham The thinking to have a "hands off to deaths by doctors", was that the origenal ACOP to RIDDOR excludes the reporting of such deaths to the HSE. And thus the ACOP was restricting the prosecutions under Section 3 of the primary legislation (HASAWA). If it is not RIDDOR reportable then no duties to work safe exist? I think the Human Rights legislation will challange this thinking. Adding the "NHS preventable deaths" to the "HSE figues" will of course bump upwards the stats. Interesting when a number of people advocate the introduction of Corporate Manslaugher; would it not be better to focus on reducing deaths in NHS care/treatment?

Posted By steven bentham Perhaps the NHS Trusts Safety Advisers or HSE or Government could give us a percentage breakdown of the preventable accidents? - By age? - By clinical area? - By type of accident? - Is there any national data? - What targets are have been set to reduce these? - Is there funding allocated or help achieve these targets? - Are the trends upwards or downwards? Or perhaps we can just sit it out and hope it goes away or in the future doctor actually goes to Prison?

Posted By steven bentham Steve I don't view comments as "intemperate ill informed comments"; your taking it to personal. Are you saying that people should not make comments about the number of deaths? Are you saying that relatives should have no views or be able to express a view different than your own? If you've got such detailed answers then publish them in the IOSH Magazine for all to see. Publish what you plan to do and you might get a lot more support.

Posted By Frank Hallett Good evening to all. This is plainly not a topic that will be resolved to the satisfaction of all in the immediate future. I shall not comment upon the Thread headline directly as I have insufficient knowledge of the case to do so - though I have no doubts that some could if so minded. Perhaps Steve [Williamson], you might like to take up the earlier challenge and provide the SHP with an impartial and dispassionate article about this case so that we can all be enlightened? If not yourself, perhaps you could prevail upon someone similar with sufficient understanding of the situation to provide the article? My personal feelings are as follows:- Absolutely no-one should be allowed to evade any just allocation of responsibility for an avoidable & foreseeable poor outcome to an activity. I'm not aware that the NHS is, in any way, officially exempted from the application of the Duty of Care, the consequences of negligent action, nor transparent and impartial investigation or consequential prosecution - and nor should they be. Also, if there is disagreement with a sentence, the principal parties always have the ability to appeal for either a lighter or heavier sentence. It is always difficult to identify and address negligence in such an environment [read that how you will!]; especially as a considerable range of patient treatment is explicitly outside the direct remit of much H&S legislation. There is no gain in any part or party involved in the NHS in being percieved as secretive, defensive or dismissive; as there is no gain in making assertions that cannot be substantiated. However, there is everything to gain from being truly open and honest with "their public" [I detest that term - stakeholders!] who deserve confidence building rather than anything else. I personally, am absolutely fed-up with my hard-earned taxes being used to pay off the impressive array of successful prosecutions against the NHS and it's constituent parts for various failings and am more than happy to see any successfully prosecuted transgressors being personally forced to bear the burden of their acts provided it is within the legal framework and proportionate to the event. Will the vultures please form an orderly queue to the far left [& right]? Frank Hallett

Posted By steven bentham I guess we can sit it out and till the next one comes along and start the thread again!