Posted By Dave Wilson
I suspect that their are a few shysters on this forum who ask for information quite 'innocently' but are then using the goodwill of others to then use that info, plagarise and sell as their work!

I get the feeling that their are "H&S Consultants" who are probably not well qualified or experienced who have been asked for this by clients.

As if you are qualified and experienced then some of the requests on here are so simple and easy, and if you do not know or understand then you shouldnt be in this business.

What do you lot feel!

Posted By warderic
I agree Dave. How many times do you find someone asking for a simple checklist that most of us know from memory, giving a make silly reason such as "I am working away and have left my paperwork at home".

Posted By Merv Newman
I've sort of promised myself to not ask for that kind of help. As a consultant for 17 years I get paid because I know that sort of thing. Whatever the question (ho ho ho !)( but waffling intelligently is permitted. It's a skill rapidly learned by all consultants. Or they don't last)

I will not share presentations as each one represents days and days of work and I believe that if one is required to make a presentation or run some training then the only way to really know the material AND the background is to research it and prepare it oneself. (Hi ! Charlie)(in joke)

However, if I have an opinion that I think is valuable, or some advice that may be useful then I will offer it. Freely. If you want my critique of the presentation/procedure/audit form/policy that you have already prepared - that too is free.

Never ask me for input on the legislation. Unless you speak french aussi good as wot I do.

Merv

Posted By Jeff Manion
I work as a consultant / adviser whatever you wish to label it as - on my web page there are many free to down load documents.
Have sent via this medium presentations and other documents that do not appear on my web.
Will continue to send them at my discretion, sometimes I get instructions sometimes not.
Have offered opinion and asked questions, some of these provoke thoughs for others and challenge.
Do not have all the answers never will, but i try my best to offer the best service.
JM

Posted By Stupendous Man
Raymond,

You imply that it is only non-members who are cowboys trying to pass someone elses work off as their own???

Non-members in what sense? Persons who do not pay any form of subscription to IOSH, or persons below CMIOSH status?

I also feel that a response such as this does little to help the cause of those downtrodden safety professionals who are placed in the position where in order to keep their job they have to provide advice in an area where they may not be fully competent, but wish to learn and comply with their employers request at the same time.

Posted By Dave Wilson
Tricky one, I have no problem sharing and giving away stuff I have done, my employer may have a problem with this as in reality its Intellectual Property Rights, the stuff I do at work is my employers and not mine.

As I would be doing this work anyway I can share, however, when someone deliberately asks for something knowing full well they are going to make a fast buck from it, is this acceptable?

If you are not competent to give advice then don't give it, but in the world of the consultant you can 'do anything' which is what you want to portray in the eyes of the client, this is business so the temptation is there, still doesn't make it right.

I am just aware that I will not give away any of the stuff I have done unless I am sure that the recipient is going to use for bona fide reasons (not using to make profit!)

I will just be more savvy in the future!

Posted By Stupendous Man
Ray,

Please do not get personal - the points I have made are valid.

Posted By Frank Hallett
Dear All - those who respond and those who simply read.

This is actually a serious question with serious implications and deserves the most impartial consideration.

For me, Merv Newman summed it up very well and my opinion matches his almost exactly [sorry Merv].

This topic was also discussed at length some weeks before Xmas with a similar fault line developing between those who will and those who won't.


I will finish by reiterating a point that I made then:-
To the independant, this is their work but they have only to ask themselves whether they wish to share their hard-won competence and the fruits of that for nothing more that to see it regurgitated as someone elses work later.


For those who are employed, you are potentially committing copyright fraud unles your employer has specifically allowed you to freely send their materials [often produced at considerable expense] to others as a charitable gesture.

I have sat in a meeting and watched a presentation that I know had been passed to that presenter as "a sample to see if I've got the main points right" repoduced in full but not with the original name on it - guess who got the money for the presentation though.

Frank Hallett

Posted By liam.b
When I started practicing Health & Safety many moons ago, I was a little bit wet around the ears but how I gained my experience from hard work and taking advice from experienced consultants I was given presentations, best practices and so on. Never once money was mentioned and I certainly didn’t sell them to gain a profit, I’m in this business to protect people, and that my duty (To protect). But to sell presentations, best practices for a profit I feel the same as you. But i don’t imply without facts (I suspect that their are a few shysters on this forum) I personally feel that this short statement is a bit harsh. As you said and if you do not know or understand then you shouldn’t be in this business. If anyone asks for advice I think we should give it if possible or presentations, best practices so on. How are people to learn if nobody passes on their experiences guess..?


Forgive me if you feel I’m being personal but I assumed these forums were to help each other and pass on information not to sell products


SB

Posted By AlB
Good morning All.

I've been in H&S for around 5 years now, and have oly just sat the NEBOSH Const. Certificate in December, but I have a very good base knowledge and can adapt pretty much to any environment. However, I do not know everything, and there have been instances where I have requested some advice and help (on Electricity Procedures in heavy manufacturing for instance), and without help from others I would find it difficult to prepare any documentation. But I asked for the advice on the forum and fot prompt replies from 3 or 4 people, whom I thanked genuinely for the advice and sample documentation.

However, I admit that Electrical Proceudres (in-depth procedures about wiring etc) is a bit over my head, but I would also NEVER take someone else's document and, in essence, steal that document and put a different heading on the top of the page. I will always read through the documents, take notes and highlights strengths and pick on some of the layout ideas, and then I would go about preparing my own document and use the documentation reciebced from others as a benchmark. If I didn't go to this level of detail, I feel that I would not develop my kowledge and understanding of the matter at hand and I would havenissed out on a great learning opportunity.

So I would like to thank those people once more for their valuable help and try to reassure those with concers that there are still people on this forum who ask for genuine advice and would not plagiarise.

Have a good day!

Posted By S.Alder
I have always been willing to share information over this forum and have been very grateful to people who have been kind enough to help me in the past.
If any of you want to ensure that you documents are not "lifted and tweaked" and presented as someone else's work you can always convert them to Pdf format before sending. This way you can give someone a "steer" in the right direction but they still have to do the work themselves.

Posted By Merv Newman
If you have the full pdf programme then you can insert a security code so that the document can't be altered. Doesn't stop anyone from retyping the document though.

All right, here we go again - I'm one of the "grandfathers" in this field. (not a real grandfather unless my son is hiding something from me) 30 years in the job, the last 17 as a consultant. Before I went independant I looked for help and ideas from everywhere. Effectively my peers taught me all I know. (knew). Since I joined IOSH I have learned more from the "practitioner" than from any other source. Certainly a lot of my training courses include elements from articles contributed by many different people. (Big ref to Dom Cooper and his articles on Behavioural Safety somewhere in 1995) And I continue to learn from this chat show. (weeell, not all that much) I can't see that as plagiarism. (classical definition : stealing from one person's work)

Stealing from and combining the work of two people is "research" stealing from and combining the work of three people is "deep research" Stealing from more than three people is known as "meta-research (and requires a government or EU grant)

Where wos I ? Oh yeah. Next week I have one day to train about 20 people on what I call "management audit training". They allow me one day on-site to take photos to integrate into the presentation. (working up to midnight in the hotel) Then one day of training. But it will take me all of this weekend to search the archives and put together the training programme that they need.

So about four/five days work for two days pay. (budding and experienced consultants may e-mail me for my tariffs)(very expensive)

(but worth every euro)

There is absolutely no way that I will ever share this presentation with another "consultant". (Except the Belgians, with whom I have an agreement (25%))

But if someone wants some advice on Management Audit Training, why, how, what, when, who ... then I am happy to oblige

Love and kisses

Merv

Posted By Heather Collins
^^ What Merv said.... (does that count as plagiarsim Merv even though I agree with every word?)