Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH Now some of us are getting used to chartered status, this has got me thinking about compentency. If we wish to keep our membership status, regardless of grade, we have to enrole, which you should have already done, onto the CPD scheme, but how else can we prove compentency, should we have to? if you wish to go into enforcement there is the section 18 assessment. Should other associations recognise our membership grade outside of RoSPA and IIRSM? Just a thought. Regards

Posted By Mark Simpson Brett Many have gone out searching for a legal definition of competence, but nobody has every come back with proof of its existence. Dont go there!

Posted By Adrian Watson Dave, Your right, I did! However on a more serious note, competence cannot be defined by qualifications. Whilst I for example, have had training and qualifications which have provided me with knowledge of ionising radiations, I have no real practical experience to speak of and thus would not deem myself to be competent, beyond saying get further and better advice! One of the difficulties is that some "practitioners" appear to believe by their statements and actions that they can do anything competently well; this is especially so in areas around occupational hygiene matters. They go off, do a course and two days later they're the world's expert on the subject. So going back to the core questions does being "Chartered" make you competent? No! However, being Chartered does raise the game and hopefully means that in the long run we are no longer considered to be the old boy in the office who's waiting for retirement, and has been given a grace and favour job for time served. Regards Adrian Watson CFIOSH FFOH CMIEH MAIHA MACGIH Chartered Safety and Health Practitioner Chartered Environmental Health Practitioner Registered Occupational Hygienist Master of Laws (Environmental Law) Master of Science (Environmental Health) Diploma of Professional Competence in Occupational Hygiene Diploma in Environmental Health … Army Hygiene Assistant Class 3

Posted By Adrian Watson Dave, I did! Chartered Environmental Health Practitioner, Chartered Safety and Health Practitioner, Registered Occupational Hygienist, Master of Laws, Master of Science, Diploma of Professional Competence in Occupational Hygiene, Diploma in Environmental Health, ... Army Hygiene Assistant Class 3. On a more serious note, being "Chartered" does not make you competent. For example I have received training and have knowledge in Ionizing Radiations, but I have very limited practical experience; I therefore count myself competent enough to ask for further and better advice, and no more! The problem I see in my practice as a Hygienics Consultant, is that "safety practitioners" go off on a two, or three day course and come back as instant experts! This is also the same when a person goes off and does a degree, diploma or certificate, and then goes back to workplace to get experience for two to three years; are they competent ... they may or may not be, but it raises questions. I believe that the benefit of chartered status is that it raises the status in other peoples minds. No longer is the safety practitioner the old guy in the corner with a flat cap on a grace and favour job, for time served, until he retires. For the practitioner, being 'Chartered' should mean not only attending branch meeting, but getting involved, mentoring, learning, questioning, challenging and otherwise being a professional in our dealings with our colleagues and those that rely on us, both employers and employees. Regards Adrian Watson CFIOSH FFOM MCIEH

Posted By Jerry Lucey 'A Competence Person' is defined under the Safety, Health & Welfare at Work Act 2005 in Ireland as 'having regard to the work he or she is required to perform and taking account of the size and hazards (or both of them) of the undertaking or establishment in which he or she undertakes work, the person posesses sufficient training, experiance, and knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work to be undertaken'. Being Chartered should mean that you have sufficient knowledge, and maintaining Chartered status should ensure that your training is kept up to date but specific industry experiance should ensure that you can prove your overall competence. Working as the equivilant of Planning Supervisor I would suggest that not only the size or nature of the project is important but also things like the location of the project. The risks associated with city centre projects vary greatly from out of town projects.

Posted By Dave Wilson Adrian, Oh forgot Army Class 3 EHA - top student on course so got my name on the wall, even though I was from the RN/RM. How did you find the time to do any work mate as it would seem that you have spent an awful lot of time in the past 20 years getting'Qualified'

Posted By Adrian Watson Dave, Night hawk! Regards Adrian

Posted By Robert K Lewis HSE included attitude and behaviour in their competence definition contained in the condoc - Managing Competence for Safety Related Systems. Guess that could rule many of us out on a Friday particularly. It also refers to an appreciation of own limitations and constraints along with effective communication abilities (sorry aptitudes for the New Labour people!) Bob

Posted By Mike Draper Not all EC member states are as "laissez faire" about competence as the UK. I recently had cause to read up on Spanish construction law and in the process found that they have enacted specific legislation to define the competence of their safety bods, the provision of safety services in organisations, the suitability of their safety management systems and the competence of consultancies. The upshot as I read it was that they have defined three levels of competence in relation to qualifications/training/experience. A basic level of competence would be demonstrated by something roughly equivalent to NGC for someone in a supervisory role but reporting to someone with 'more' competence. The intermediate level would be roughly equivalent to the first half of the NEBOSH diploma and would probably be in a safety management role but would probably not set policy. The higher level would be roughly equivalent to the full diploma backed with a technical degree, i.e. chartered status, however there would be some specialism in to four distinct fields; Safety at work, Industrial health, Applied ergonomics, and Occupational medicine (although as I read it you need a medical qualification for the last category, not a technical degree). Every organisation then has a choice as to whether they provide access to the higher level functions internally (recommended in large organisations or high risk industries and may be required by intervention) or sub-contract to an external provider. Either way, the in-house service or external provider must have at least two higher level experts, from separate specialisms, as they did not consider it possible for one person to be able to be competent in all fields at the same time. The higher level experts would then set policy within the business framework and implement a safety management system. Each organisation must also audit the safety management system. For consultancies this would be done by a licensing system administered by the labour authorities, which would also cover the service they provide to client organisations. For organisations operating an internal H&S service, they have to carry out an external audit at least every 5 years. The particular legislation was quite forward looking as it basically introduced a whole new set of qualifications and careers in to Spain where previously there would have been a bit of a vacuum. Mike

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH I would like to thank all so far for the creative comments that have been appering on this thread, apart from those who think that being exforces is a good, thats for a different group. So how about section 18 compentency, should we be able to demonstrate those skills as well? I understand and acknowledge the Tech SP argument, that I would like to address later but not in this thread. I would like to get a general feeling of what safety bods are thinking, outside of cpd requirements. Regards

Posted By Richie Jonathan, Lots of discussion here regarding competence, please excuse my previous irrelevant inclusion. Here are my thoughts: Given the current rhetoric from the DWP involving 'competent advice' rubbing along with 'Chartered' within the same paragraphs, would it be a step beyond to imagine a situation where the government equates them? I can hear the screams from non-chartered contributors now, but stranger things have happened. It is true that chartered does not equate to competent, but nor does it in any field of work. Structures designed by chartered architects and erected by chartered engineers fail. Chartered accountant errors sink companies. But not many. And that is the point. Look, we are where we are. In my view the law is likely to jump at Chartered Safety Practitioners scoping all work, before then deciding what level of expertise is forseeably likely to be needed. This will probably be best established by the insurance industry. With this solution everyone in the safety industry keeps working but the right level of expertise is more likely to be given to the right level of hazard/risk. A safety industry left to it's own devices has failed for 13 years to establish a definition of 'competent'. The government is likely to lose patience soon, so if we cannot agree on competence to our own satisfaction then the government will. And that will hurt! Richie

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH So Richie, what would you propose? Would would require that all safety persons demonstrate compentency when they have reached chartered status, as required for enforcement officers? Would the Practice Cetificate be used, this is still early days for chartered persons,we are lucky to live in a democratic country, How would other membership ranks be recognised, just because they are not chartered does not mean to say they are not competent to do the job, I personally know many Tech SP's and Member grades that for one reason or another will never make chartered status, and they are far better safety persons than some chartered members. All I am asking is how or should we demonstrate compentency?

Posted By Stupendous Man Richie, 'A safety industry left to it's own devices has failed for 13 years to establish a definition of 'competent'. ' You miss the point that there cannot be a single definition of competence. Competence includes experience, and I doubt there will ever be a health and safety professional who has adequate experience of all industry sectors. Competence also means that you know your limits, yet the suggestion here is that competent people will not have any limits. The only way we are going to have a 'definition' of competence in the way that you are sugesting is to have specific regulations for each type of industry that determine what the 'competence' is for each. Just think: The Health and Safety (Mines and Quarries) Regulations The Health and Safety (Call Centres) Regulations The Health and Safety (Retail) Regulations The Health and Safety (Offices) Regulations The Health and Safety (Armed Forces) Regulations The Health and Safety (Car Showrooms) Regulations The Health and Safety (Libraries) Regulations The Health and Safety (Nanotechnology Laboratories) Regulations The Health and Safety (Hospitals) Regulations Need I go on? Just because we have a less prescriptive definition of competence to others, does it automatically mean that we are wrong?

Posted By S P Walsh Definition of competency. Being able to go home and sleep at night and not worry that something you did or did not do killed someone on the night shift? Discuss.

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH Stupendous Man, A bit over the top but I do follow the logic. Would it be worth while that like the CSCS card scheme for construction we look to a similar something for other main industries, New Roads and Street Works has Section 10 cards, Plant has theres, these show compentency of the individual. Regards

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH Just one thought I will give you, you need to demonstrate competency and qualifications to be an electrician but you do not need to be competent or qualified to be a director of a company.

Posted By Dave Wilson No I am not still in, but after 20 years in the RN/RM with a green beret I really do not think you should just off handandly dis ex services because if it wasnt for people like us you would not have the freedom of speech which you now njoy, in fact you would be speaking German. Ex Falkland, Gulf, Norway X 8, Brunei, Borneo, Chinese border in Hong Kong, Canada, Germany, Switzerland, NI x 2, US, Mexico (Disaster relief), Denmark, Kenya, Salsbury Plain, Dartmoor, Sennybridge, capel curig, black Mountans, Ben Nevis, Kinlochleven, Skye to name but a few. 40Cdo, 41Cdo, 42Cdo, 45Cdo, Cdo Log Regt, 3 Cdo Bde, M&AW Cadre, HQ 4 Armd Div etc etc So am I competent Yes? Do You think I am? I do not care!!!

Posted By Richard Spencer To the Moderator I do believe remarks, comments, diatribe and forms of rhetoric are all acceptable in a chat page provided they make the point the author wishes be made, in response to a particular or group of similar topics. What I don’t believe we should be doing is discussing an issue that was until recently so charged with emotion, as the tenor of such commentary is somewhat undermining of the status chartered confers. I cannot fully explain the difference between chartered and certificate of competency, but I can say this as the holder of a certificate of competency and as a chartered member of this and other institutions the fundamental difference is that the certain certificates of competency require legislative conditions be met both nationally and internationally. A chartered member has similar requirements almost parallel to the certificate holder and when examining the criteria the difference is almost imperceptible. Therefore, I believe this is an unduly provocative question designed to generate a circular argument and will remain so until the definition appears in law clearly and unequivocally. For the record I believe this type of issue should not appear in open forum as it has. It should instead be listed in the secure forum and I believe that the moderator should now close this thread. Richard

Posted By George Leung Why do you want to be chartered? For what honestly? Can ya' tell? George

Posted By IT I don't understand these regular threads that refocus the competency vs. Chartered issue. There have been some extremely good comments about views of competency and, we then try to turn the open discussion on competency to the Chartered status. As far as membership of any organisation goes, it does not alone make you competent; there are several factors that are mentioned within this thread that gives more definition to a competent person. Closed debates will never allow an Organisation to learn, and then the membership can never learn either in my opinion. The Government opened the door (how to be identified) and yes there are several people who are concerned that deciding competency by membership will impact on them and they have a right to feel so. Safety as a profession has always been a job where people were put into to it because they could not do anything else (according to their bosses anyway) now look at it a profession that has moved forward and is recognised as a necessity for industry(although kicking and screaming ), the problem is even as professionals we kick ourselves and measure change by what we personally see as a defined standard. Look at the skilled labor force in the UK and look at the lack of competent Plumbers, Electricians, lorry drivers(Not all) etc all in a chosen profession all reaching levels of competency like CORGI (as pointed out), we sanitize the argument by legislation and the government over regulates prescriptive measures to the point even the practioners don't want it anymore (subjective view). I keep seeing that Attitudes and behavior are a part of competency ,Behavioral safety at its best , I could go back to my Uni days and ask to define an Attitude (Not Measurable except by perception and usually based on Observed behavior) but I wont. I suppose an example is in order CORGI plumbers installing boiler results in insurance claim for new kitchen roof, repaired by a NON CORGI plumber who identified the fault (recent), the Corgi plumbers are competent by legislation or regulation. In short it does not work IMO, so please don't think this is about Chartered membership it is about the many who may not wish to be deemed competent by membership. This subject would be a great Thesis for someone. Jonathan are you straw polling ?