Posted By J Knight Eeyup, We are drawing up our MORR documents, and we have hit a bit of a technical question: when is a driver at work? Now, in most instances this is clear, and I've looked in Tolley for some case law on scope of employment which helps with some of the situations where its not so clear. But I suppose my questions are around this sort of scenario. I am a salaried worker, and my hours of work are 37.5 p.w. The Charity is a 24 hour operation. We don't have 'core hours' or any clear statement anywhere of what a 'normal' working day looks like. So when I'm buzzing round the M25 (OK, crawling) at 7:00 p.m. on my way to Reading because I have to start work at 09:30 the next morning and this is impractical without an overnight stay, am I at work? Am I on my employer's business? I am not being 'paid' (one of the common tests of 'at work') in any real sense because, being salaried, I get paid just to exist provided that I have a certain measurable output and am 'at work' for 37.5 hours a week. But I wouldn't be on the M25 if it wasn't necessary for my work. WTR says driving outside 'normal hours' isn't work; but in my case, and in the case of several hundred of my fellow employees in similar situations at various times, what would be construed as 'normal hours'? So for the legal bods out there (Adrian for example); what tests would be applicable in deciding whether I would be at work? And would a declaration of core or working hours by the Charity act to limit duty of care outside these hours? I hope that's clear, John

Posted By Raymond Rapp I would have thought for a benchmark that RIDDOR would apply. Hence, if you are driving as part of your 'normal' work duties, then you are at work regardless of whether it ourside normal working hours. However, if your driving is to or from work, then it would not be classified as work, regardless of what time of the day it is. Ray

Posted By Brett Day John have appended Alan's post John, Do you have a fixed place of work or do you work from home and how is this documented in your contract? If you have a fixed place of work then travel to and from this one place could be concieved as in your own time and at your own risk. (The above is classed as commuting rather than working) Alternatively if you work from home or various sites then your journey from home to varying places of work is in employment and covered by your employers risk. (Absolutely correct) Sorry that's not that clear cut but that is my view on the subject. With regard to you travelling to a hotel to stay overnight for work the next day the question would lie with who is paying for your accomodation. by this i mean is it your choice and your expense or your employers expense. if it is at your employers expense then my opinion is you are in employment throughout the process including sleeping, regardless of pay you are carrying out a duty for the benefit of your employer. (The test from the police attending an RTA would be 'did the person need to make this as a personal journey?' as it is so the person can arrive at a reasonable time, be fresh for the days work, avoid driving long hours etc it would be classed as work related, irrespective of who is paying for accomodation and the like). Previously the police did not record and did not have a space on the STATS 19 form used at RTA's to record work related driving, this form has now been amended and comes with guidelines as to what denotes 'work related driving'. Hope that helps.

Posted By Brett Day Tony, good lord no, too many companies get employees to do this sort of driving in thier 'own time' specifically to try and avoid responsibility. It was one of the main drivers (pardon the pun) behind the revised STATS 19 form and accompanying guidance notes.

Posted By J Knight Hi folks, Interesting answers so far; I too feel that since I wouldn't be making the journey if it wasn't for work, and since my mileage and accommodation for the journey would be paid, I would be at work. I suppose the further question behind this is what view would the courts take? You see, my boss has been talking to our lawyers (not the in-house lot, a specialist HR firm) and they have confirmed that WTR do exclude time spent driving outside 'normal' hours. How would the courts view this? The Police might well regard me as being at work, and record this as such on their form 19, however, what legal status does that have? My boss is not at all opposed to the idea that WTR and H&S law might differ, we would just like some clarification on this if possible. Your replies have helped my thinking, and in response to some of the specific questions raised by posters; I do have a fixed base which is not my home, and I do often travel from it to distant places. Since I have a company car I don't claim mileage as such, and any journey with a destination not my normal place of work is regarded as a work journey (otherwise I pay for my own use). I do have contracted hours, but my 'normal' week would see me anywhere from Oxfordshire to Aberdenn for two of three days. I think I'm at work, but what would a judge think? And the further question, one which is alluded to by one of the posters (I forget who, sorry) is if we set 'normal' working hours, could we then say that an employee driving outside those 'normal' hours would be acting on their own cognizance? The reason behind that is that I know we have people leaving home at 5 a.m. and getting back at midnight. I want to stop that; they have Premier Travelinn business cards, and they can be more careful about scheduling. I am meeting strong resistance to this though; it seems that many of our most senior managers want to continue working 18 hour days with hundreds of miles of driving included. If we can't stop them, I don't want to have to be responsible for them, John

Posted By George Wedgwood I believe that you are at work if you can demonstrate 'intent' to pursue your planned course of work for your employer. You will claim expenses for any outgoings connected with your journey, if intent is demonstrated and can be justified - and I think even if you travelled half way, and had mistakenly travelled on the wrong day, that would still demonstrate intent to work. You employer accepts this level of responsibility of you as you clearly are making your own 'delegated' decisions as to where you go and when, and also how you arrange your travel and subsistence. Previous expense claims would demonstrate to a Court that you were simply doing what has already been accepted by your employer - and they had condoned or approved your behaviour by paying your expenses and not disciplining you if they thought your behaviour to be unreasonable. The fact that they don't know or perhaps don't care how you do it is irrelevant - they should have monitoring systems to ensure they know! Your challenge is to help the employer think about such travel and driving risks and RoSPA have done a lot on this. Their work is taking somne effect and "Brake" (http://www.brake.org.uk/) is also campaigning for safer company drivers. You could introduce a policy or management guidance to help address the risks and eventually, the culture will change - I have seen this happen in two large companies already. I can share a generic 'company car' guidance doc if it will help. Regards, George

Posted By Martin Gray Should you be involved in an RTC that results in serious injury or a fatality the police will look at your movements over the previous days/weeks to establish whether or not you were going to appointments all over the place and thereby working excessive hours. They have in the past seized appointments diaries as evidence to support a possible prosecution. Also if your employer is expecting you to achieve unrealistic numbers of appointments that require a lot of driving between appointments they could be prosecuted under the management regs. Managed appointment with if neccessary over night stops should always be considered to reduce the effects of tiredness whilst driving.

Posted By George Wedgwood Thanks for the comment John - it seems that you are well on the way and I would love to see your version of the RoSPA advice to see if mine can benefit from your experience! If you can share, that would be great. Thanks, George