Posted By Phil McCormack
I asked somebody if they would mind not using their mobile whilst filling up with petrol the other day. It occurred to me afterwards that I don't know of any solid evidence why this should be so. Furthermore, why are other devices such as car alarm remote fobs,etc. not discouraged? Do petrol station staff always use 'intrinsically safe' equipment on the forecourt?

Jeremy will have a field day if he gets hold of this one.

Cheers
Phil

Posted By Brett Day
Here are some links that might help:

http://www.snopes.com/autos/hazards/gasvapor.asp

http://urbanlegends.abou.../blgas-static-fires2.htm

http://www.pei.org/static/

http://www.pei.org/pdf/motorola.pdf

http://www.wired.com/new...ess/0,1382,58188,00.html

http://www.hintsandthing....uk/garage/phonehoax.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/...england/kent/4366337.stm

http://www.nurs.co.uk/ne...515264212694732247_1.htm

Posted By Julian Meer (at Work)
The microwave emissions from a mobile phone are in the hazardous range for petrol vapour ignition. What proababley saves the day is perhaps the diffculty in forming the right type of recieiving antenna within the geometry of the filling operation, the power level of the phones (presently have doubts about 3G) and hopefully the earthing and bonding involved during the off-load. Saying that, I can forsee someone wearing a charm bracelet which knocks against the car whilst they are at a station with relative poor eathing (influenced from underlying geometry)and there being a "K-ching!".
Bear in mind also the average Joe's mobile phone is not Ex (unlike mine and other show-offs) and is not in its case. Whilst in the Zone 1 or 2 created by their filling operation (see IP Model code of Safe Practice Part 15) they drop their phone which seperates from battery with spark. I do not know if this spark would be energetic enough or last long enough to act as a source of ignition, but with all these varaibles it is not worth the risk. There is a recent HSE circular to LA Petroleum Officers which states mobile phones should not be used when filling cars and with all the vaiarbles to me that is sound enough advice.
What is increasingley tickling me is all the mobile masts cropping up behind petrol stataions. To me these present a much larger risk when bulk off-laoding petrol and I wonder which of the relevant parties has done their radio frequencey ignition assessment as per BS6656.
Intrinsilcally Safe equipment is a family member of hazardous area equipment. IS equipment is usually elctronic devices. I still see the odd petrol station with the older FLP pumps (electrical devices and a lower Ex family member). So no, petrol forecourts don't always have IS equiopment. Yesterday, I saw where one had put a security camera at head hieght in to me what could be a zone 2 area in the event of a spill whilst a high sided van could have been at the opposite fill point. The point is Ex equipment in hazardous areas saves lives and non-Ex equipment kills. So consult any non-Ex mobile phones handbook and it will say do not use at chemical sites or petrol stations. My mobile is suitable to a Zone 1 area but I would never dream of using it whilst filling petrol less I lead persons severly astray.

Posted By gham
In my personal opinion i will beleive it whe i see it

Have you ever driven passed a filling station and seen the Danger Radiation sign on the Pricing Signs. The reason being, Mobile Phone carrier antenna! when you see this there is usually an Exchange Terminal on the forecourt somewhere, on them they have vent grilles which means that they heat.

I think it have more to do with interfereing with the telometry than anything else.

I dare say i'll be firmly put in my place now

Posted By Julian Meer (at Work)
"microwave emissions from a mobile phone are in the hazardous range for petrol vapour ignition"

Explantion: Within the relevant assessment standards flammable fluids are grouped according to ignition energy. It can be shown that some radio and microwaves can impart energy equal or greater than that fluids ignition energy in proportion to the recieving antenna and frequencies involved. This risk radio frequncey igntion (RFI).

For the petrochemical industry and for certain explosive devices radio frequencey igntion is a real risk that needs assessing and controlling. It is not obvioulsy explained within NEBOSH Dip but is mentioned within the DSEAR ACOP's and is supported by many relevant standards.

I have seen non-Ex mobile phones and site walkie talkies interfere with plant instrumentation (particulary older stuff). This provides further inciation to me of the underlying energies availbale and the hazard potential involved when dealing with flammable fluids.

Posted By mrs.seed
myth or fact doesnt matter, petrol stations all have no mobile phone signs on the pumps, so Phil was right to challenge.

Posted By Julian Meer (at Work)
Yes, obviously the car engine is a risk, hence the "switch off engine signs" and that on better cars you need the ignition key to open the fuel cap. This is becuase the basis of safety is to switch off the engine. See also DSEAR's take on mechanical igntion risk and the new assessment standards for mechanical ignition assessment (albeit fixed equipment within hazardous areas). The static is also usually discharged as you get out the car or via the conductive filling hose. In practice there are many controls operating by coincidence on the avarage forecourt, but if it is below average (and who knows) the risk can be real. On the occassion I have seen a discharge from radio frequencey it was as sure as the piezo discharge one gets of a spark gun. Mick gets my vote for challenging too.

Posted By Descarte
Shell UK said in a letter to the mobile phone industry last yearthat: …the email is from a non-Shell source and that the originating email was an Internethoax. This would indicate that the three cases being referred to are completelyfictitious…

Shell has no knowledge of any specific incident of ignition that occurred as aresult of using a mobile phone on forecourts”.With respect to the general question of whether there are any risks from using a mobilephone in a petrol station, scientific research shows the risk of ignition from mobile phone use in such situations is very remote –

essentially as the amount of radio frequency energy emitted from hand-held mobile phones is considered too low to cause a spark. Shell UK Oil assessed the risks of a radio frequency spark from mobile phones as long ago as 19911and said: …portable cellphones properly used do not represent a meaningful hazard on the retail forecourt. Without doubt, apart from the human acts of smoking and striking a match,the thing that represents the greatest hazard on the retail forecourt is the motorcar!

More recently the concern about mobile phone use at petrol stations was based on the belief that there was a risk the battery may become dislodged and cause a spark that may ignite fuel; although no one had any credible evidence to support this opinion.Following a recent seminar on this topic by the British Institute of Petroleum, theyannounced in a press release2that:

The seminar showed the findings of research undertaken to date demonstrating thatalthough the majority of mobile phones are not specifically designed and constructedto prevent them igniting a flammable atmosphere (in accordance with standards for‘protected equipment’), the risk they present as a source of ignition is negligible.

While mobile phone users should always obey warning signs, there is no sound technical basis to prohibit the use of mobile phones in petrol stations or single them out as hazards

Posted By John Murgatroyd
The rule says: no mobile phones.
Other rules say: turn engine off. No naked lights.
Other safety rules, elsewhere, say: hard hats must be worn (even on sites with no buildings and no work being done)
You're in the business of making rules and ensuring that they are obeyed.
So, be like the guys you're trying to educate: Just do what you like and sod the rules, and the people.

THIS subject has been done to DEATH, over AT LEAST TWO YEARS.

Posted By Barry Cooper
Below is a safety bulletin in Dallas approx 12-18 months ago

The Shell Oil Company recently issued a warning after three incidents in which mobile phones (cell phones) ignited fumes during fueling operations. (Channel 10 carried a story last night about a fueling fire.)

In the first case, the phone was placed on the car's trunk lid during
fueling; it rang and the ensuing fire destroyed the car and the gasoline pump.

In the second, an individual suffered severe burns to their face when
fumes ignited as they answered a call while refueling their car.

And in the third, an individual suffered burns to the thigh and groin as fumes ignited when the phone, which was in their pocket, rang while they were fueling their car.

So it can happen

Barry

Posted By William
how about using a mobile phone north sea oil platform with a benzene problem. Seen it done on one of the brent platforms

Posted By Dave West
this is off the HSE website
10 Generally mobile telephones are not designed and certified for use in explosive atmospheres. Their use can also create a serious distraction for people carrying out dispensing activities. Radio transmissions from individual mobile telephones are generally too low to induce dangerous electric currents in nearby equipment and the risk of incendive sparking from the battery is low, however, they should not be used in the hazardous areas that exist when actually dispensing petrol. Neither should they be used in the hazardous areas around the fill and vent pipes during petrol deliveries.

11 Rather than applying a total prohibition on the use of mobile telephones on petrol forecourts which has resulted in some anomalies and frequent abuse to staff, the following controls are recommended:

Mobile telephones should not be used by customers or forecourt staff whilst actually dispensing petrol into fuel tanks or containers;

During petrol deliveries mobile telephones should not be used on those parts of the site that have been designated as hazardous areas by the site operator or the driver;

Mobile telephones should not be used during other petrol handling operations or during the maintenance of petrol equipment unless a specific assessment shows the risks are negligible;

There is no need to restrict the use of mobile telephones, with respect to the safe keeping of petrol, at other times or in other areas of the forecourt. This includes in the shop, in motor vehicles parked on the forecourt or in other non-hazardous areas.

12 The use of radio equipment fitted on emergency vehicles and citizen band (CB) radios may create an ignition risk. These types of transmitting equipment do have a power out-put sufficient to induce dangerous electrical currents in nearby fixtures and they should not be allowed to be used at the dispensing points or in the vicinity of the road tanker when unloading. It should be noted that the radio equipment mounted on most emergency vehicles is under automatic interrogation from the base station. This means that radio messages are being received and transmitted without anyone speaking into a hand set. The Home Office has issued the emergency services with separate advice on the use of radios and CB equipment in the vicinity of filling stations.

Posted By Tony Brunskill
On a lighter note. Did anyone see the Brainiac programme when they filled a caravan witha mixture of volatile gases. Placed around 10 mobiles in the caravan, dressed back and rang all the phones. Effect nil. Then ran a cable to the van and had a researcher wearing nylon and standing on an insulated surface touch the other end of the cable. Effect = Large exposion and 1 less carvan.

Point to note - I would not try to use the Brainiac programme as a defence!! Nanny state - you decide.

Posted By Mark Mace
some 20 years ago i attented a fire deaprtment training course, whereupon they showed a video of a man walking away from a petrol station, distance approx 100yds, the man lit a cigarette whilst still proceeding away from the petrol station, one second later there was no petrol station or occupants.

Obviously caused by the match and a vapour cloud, however we all take fueling stations for granted and most peolple ignore safety signs for the use of mobile phones as it requires effort to turn them off.

It could happen its just not happened yet.

If you see it challenge them it may change attitudes and if it saves one person from injury or death then you have done them the best service possible.

Posted By Descarte
But surely things like propane, butane or in the buncefield case most likely Kerosene have a higher flammability and lower flash point than diesel/petrol?

And yes those 3 email examples were hoax's hence my post - quote Shell "the email is from a non-Shell source and that the originating email was an Internethoax. This would indicate that the three cases being referred to are completely fictitious…"

Did you also see the Brainiac where they tried to cook an egg using 150 mobile phones surrounding the egg all ringing at once. Result = egg not even slightly warm.

Also if I remember correctly the highly influential "Remember Charlie" video or in my case conference talk, where the poor guy was involved in a similar situation to buncefield but not wearing his flame proof overalls apparently started it himself in his truck and a cloud of vapour. I cannot for the life of me remember what he said actually caused it, was either somethign like his radio or the engine.

On the subject of responsible / trained persons to dispense petrol, where I used to live in kent, our local petrol station used to always fill your gas up for you. I wonder if they had proper training or personal Benzene monitoring hmmm.