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Posted By Lyndon Sutcliffe
Our site was recently audited by our parent company and the auditor insisted that we obtain a MSDS for Natural Gas.
Despite great effort, the gas supplier doesn't understand this request and people have suggested that we contact Transco, or the grid manager. I do think this request is a bit OTT, but I am determined to get an MSDS in order to comply and it has now become a matter of principle, from the point of view that if you sell a product, you must make the customer aware of the risks associated with its use.
Has anyone else encountered this problem and how did you resolve it.
Thanks
Lyndon
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Posted By Lyndon Sutcliffe
The methane is methane point won't wash with the auditor, as she seems to think that we should keep updated tech and safety data sheets to prove that we are ensuring that the gas we receive is up to scratch (although we wouldn't know what to do if it wasn't!).
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Posted By Descarte
except possibly for the addition of ethanethiol by the gas companies in the UK
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Posted By Bill Elliott
WHY - do you store or transfer natural gas across your site(s)? Seems a bit odd to me if you don't. Surely all you would need would be a contingency and emergency plan in place in case of escape.
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Posted By Descarte
Lindapter International is the recognised world leader in connection systems for steelwork - apparently
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Posted By Lyndon Sutcliffe
Thanks for the unprofessional comment.
As I said, I feel this is OTT, but I was just asking if any other 'safety professionals' had come across the same issue.
I really don't see why the integrity of our organisation is in question.
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Posted By Kevin Walker
Hi Lyndon,
you did say a MSDS for natural gas. This is predominatantly methane, they do add extras to ordourise it so you smell leakage. but essentially it is the same.
kevin
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Posted By Descarte
We have MSDS sheets for all bottled gas which we get on site, not knowing how you use your natural gas, how you buy it, quantities, where or how operators can become exposed to it and in what context I cant say whether or not this is OTT. If however you use it for cooking in your site kitchen then yes it is probably OTT
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Posted By Lyndon Sutcliffe
Thanks for the info.
We use gas for space heating purposes only, if we used it for cooking then I would really have an issue.
I think my point is being missed. I just wondered if anyone else had had the same request. My argument is that although this is OTT, I feel that suppliers should give some safety guidance on the commodity that they are supplying.
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Posted By Kate Graham
"keep updated tech and safety data sheets to prove that we are ensuring that the gas we receive is up to scratch"
That is even more insane.
The msds and tech data sheet do not prove any such thing. You would need QC certificates showing test results against the spec to prove that!
Kate
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Posted By Lyndon Sutcliffe
Thanks for the replies. I am total agreement with you, yes it's insane.
Sulphur content was mentioned, but I think I will leave this issue alone now. I didn't know people would feel so strongly about it.
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Posted By Owen Tudor
Lyndon
We were asked for an MSDS for Natural Gas and eventually managed to get one from our supplier National Grid who used to be Transco. Hope this is of some help to you.
Owen
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Posted By Lyndon Sutcliffe
Hi
Thanks for that, I am not alone then.
Yes I will try that, i was on the national grid website yesterday looking for the same.
If you have any contacts there please email me.
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Owen,
What would happen if Mr Auditor realised that Transco wasn't the supplier listed on the bill?
I can imagine the conversation...
"Yes Mr Sutcliffe, but yours is not Transco branded gas."
"But it comes from the big gas tank in town and is the same as the gas I use at home?"
"That's not the point Mr Sutcliffe, your paperwork is clearly not to scratch and that could pose a risk."
"Only of me throttling you!"
Lyndon, what kind of audit is it you are undertaking?
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Posted By Lyndon Sutcliffe
We are part of a large american group, and this issue was raised during the introduction to an ENHESA compliance audit.
The full audit has not taken place and could be next year.
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Do they not teach their auditors flexibility?
Perhaps you should also ask for MSDS from your electricity and water supplers then...
...You know it's the next logical step.
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Posted By Lyndon Sutcliffe
Yes, but we all know that electricity and water doesn't mix.
I am starting to regret posting.
lesson learnt!
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Posted By steve e ashton
Jonathan
Whilst working for a water company - I WAS asked for a MSDS for water from one of our customers. The jobsworth had it on his list, and he was absolutely adamant on receiving the info.
Preparing it provoked more hilarity around the office than any other job I've ever done...
Steve
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
What do they teach these auditors apart from not to use the grey matter too much?
Although, to be fair the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide have been well reported on the web.
Lyndon - I hope the info others have provided satisfies. Please be aware I 'm laughing with you, not at you.
FYI - I am trained as an ISO 9001 internal auditor myself so I am also qualified to ask dumb questions.
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Posted By Mark Talbot
So would I get stones thrown at me if I agreed with the auditors?
(I too am qualified, and I wouldn't usually be asking for this particular MSDS, but I can see the reasoning).
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Mark,
I can see the reasoning from the starting point they're at. All very logical.
But I'm not sure they are starting in the right place and I'm not sure I like where the logic appears to lead. That's all.
But then I'm speaking from a position of ignorance on this particular type of audit.
Convince me and I'll change my mind.
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Posted By Kate Graham
Steve is not the only one with an msds for water. I received an unsolicited msds for water from a chemicals supplier which sent msds automatically with each new chemical. Lazily, they wrote a single msds to cover three different products: deionized water, purified water, and demineralized water. You can imagine the instructions in case of contact with the eyes, or ingestion, but sadly, under "fire" they unaccountably failed to write 'extinguish with water".
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I think the quote from the ENHESA site makes one question where it is all at
"ENHESA is a dynamic, highly trained and experienced, team of multilingual consultants with in-depth knowledge of regulatory and policy issues at global, regional, national and local levels"
In one sense I can see that they are concerned that you have not proved the safety issues concerned with the presence of natural gas in your premises. But the throw away remark suggsts that the auditor is not actually sure of the question they are asking - which can happen at times when you are working across borders. The checksheets were originally not in English I would guess and so lose out in translation.
I too have seen sheets for natural gas around but the net information comes down to methane + odoriser.
Hazard Information
Non toxic, Highly flammable, Explosive between 2 and 20% v/v in air. Produces toxic gas, carbon monoxide when burnt in restricted air supply. But I agree that National Grid is the best source of information
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Gas/Safety/
Bob
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Posted By jom
Lyndon,
Looks like you received more advice than needed. Here's some more.
I'm not sure we can assume natural gas is methane + odourant and nothing else.
Natural gas comes from process plants that take in hydrocarbons from production wells and attempt to produce a product stream of methane that is sold as "natural gas".
The hydrocarbon feed contains methane, ethane, propane, butane, pentane, hexane and so on.
I'm not sure there is a guarantee that the gas sold into the grid is methane and nothing but methane.
There is a parameter used by gas producers to represent the gas quality - the Wobbe index. (I don't know who or what a Wobbe was.)
Gas fed into the grid must be within a lower and upper limit re Wobbe Index.
Outside the limits in one direction, and the gas could flame out - dangerous.
Outside the other way, and the gas could produce excessive heat - dangerous.
Don't suppose that helps you at all.
Does anyone know who or what was "Wobbe"?
John.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Nope
But it has a linear relationship to the CARI, Combustion Air Requirement Index :-)
Bob
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