Posted By naomi Hi all, Might look like a strange question, but it is in relation to risk assessments! My son (8yrs old) has swimming lessons. Yesterday he got into difficulty in the deep end.(another student landed on top of him) He struggled back to the deep end coughing and spluttering and obviously shaken up (as he is not a strong swimmer, only just moved up a group from being in the baby pool) Instructer only noticed he was in trouble when he reached the side of the pool. After the class I asked the duty manager what there risk assessment determined on how many life guards should be present, the reply was: One life guard for the two pools (baby pool and main pool) plus the instrutors are life guard trained. I explained that I didn't feel this was enough. An instruter is there to teach the students to swim and can not watch all of the students at one time. (group size 12) The life guard mainly watches the baby pool or chats to another guard who is ready to take over, and hardly glances over to the main pool (even though I would say this is more hazardous) What are your views? am I right to be concerned? Naomi

Posted By Clairey O Hi Naomi Have a look in Managiing Safety in Swimming Pools. As a former pool manager, and currently prcticing swim teacher and aquatic rescue trainer, I am frankly horrified. When it comes to things like jumping in etc, it should be done one at a time, especially if like the case of your son are new to that depth of water and also to prevent accidents happening. In defence of the swimming teachers, you don't always want to make a big thing out of someone who has swallowed water, as they may associate it with a negitive experience and go onto develop a fear of the water. Things like how to manage jumping in and similar activities would be covered in the training to become a swimming teacher and also in the rescue award that all swimming teachers should complete as it is specific to their needs rather than the generic pool lifeguard award. feel free to mail me off the forum for more information.

Posted By Joe Ridley Will e-mail you direct In general the pool should be covered by lifeguards particularly if the pool is still being used for unprogrammed swimming as well as lessons. Lifeguards standing talking are just a recipe for disaster...would the manager be happy about this? I would not be feeling safe. Personally the guidance in HSG 179 provides a table on the recommended number of lifeguards for pools. Joe

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH Naomi, there is also another legal point that you could concider, you clasify it as a near miss under RIDDOR, the instructor should have carried out the risk assessment, and would know how many they can look after, case pending on Met Police on failing in duty of care child drowned, anybody else remember? I would also check with LA re occupiers libilety, have you checked to see if instructor is insured? qualified? Just some ideas. Regards Jonathan Sandler

Posted By anon1234 I know what a near miss is and i know what RIDDOR is - BUT... what is a near miss under RIDDOR?

Posted By anon1234 Hold on a minute - RIDDOR reports are made using an F2508 or F2508a form, neither of which have the option of indicating that what is being reported is a near miss - because near misses are NOT RIDDOR reportable. If you did report a near miss using these forms surely they would come up as incomplete and therefore you would be asked what type of RIDDOR incident you are reporting or they would be identified as not RIDDOR reportable and get binned. This type of reporting follows the 'report it just in case' philosophy and would undoubtable raise questions in the mind of the enforcing authorities as to the competence of the company concerned - also if you did follow this approach, you would end up reporting hundreds of near misses - you've only got to look at the ratios of such incidents in Bird's traingle etc. If this happened in my company I would beg the question as to whether the person doing this was competent - obviously though I accept that some things do get reported as RIDDOR incidents due to genuine reasons, but reporting near misses - I think not. Clearly you should have an in house near miss reporting system but don't get confused between RIDDOR (i.e. statutory) reporting and internal accident and incident reporting systems. We currently run at someting in the order of 100 non-RIDDOR-reportable incidents per RIDDOR reportable incident and I'm sure we are nowhere near getting all the near misses through this - but we look at all of them and take appropriate action as a result. Businesses should be managing health and safety issues and not passing things across to the enforcing authorities to do it for them or to cover their backsides. In my view and experience you'd be better off meeting occassionally with the relevant enforcing authority personnel and demonstrating to them that you have a mature system for managing health and safety - then if you do have a serious incident or other concern you have a much more friendly and open dialogue with them for getting additional advice and in achieving a non-confrontational working relationship

Posted By Andy Walker Naomi I have emailed you directly with some info Andy

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH anon1234 has made some valid points, but the point I am makeing is the failure in the duty of care, this can be quantified by the serverity of the incident, if a child is injuried in a play ground, the matter is recorded in a book, but how can this incident be recorded? how can the leisure centre prevent this type of incident happening again? Should we accept a fatality before something is done? Should a person report it to RIDDOR? Moral or Legal that is the point? is it not. Regards

Posted By Alan Hewett Hello Naomi, You could put your comments in writing to the swimming pool management outlining your concerns, that you want the details recorded in thier accident recording system as a near miss and that you would like to know what thier pupil / staff / lifegaurd ratios are. If the swimming pool is local authority ran you may also consider raising the issue with your local councillor if you are not satisfied with the outcome. In addition (if local authority) you may be able to place a freedom of information request for the number of incidents that have occurred in the pool previously. Regards Alan

Posted By Aidan Toner I would refer you to ISRM (Institute of Sport And Recreation Management) -32 page colour booklet on Managing Child Admissons which covers supervison ratios in public sector swimming.This leisure sector guidance would be referred to by HSE in any investigation of water related death or injury.