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#1 Posted : 06 June 2006 15:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By AMJAD AL ATA Hi, I would like to ask about CO2 as extinguishing agent, when stored in cylinders, is it in liquid phase or gas phase? And, why such clyniders become so cold when discharged? Regards Amjad
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#2 Posted : 06 June 2006 16:21:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert Jackson Amjad When discharged the Liquid / Gas drops in temperature ( below 80c) causing the ice. hope this helps Rj
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#3 Posted : 06 June 2006 16:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By AMJAD AL ATA Thanks RJ, From your respons may I gess the answer to my first question. that CO2 stored in cylinders as liquified gas. am I right? (so when discharged it returns to gas phase the matter which reduce temprature) Regards Amjad
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#4 Posted : 06 June 2006 16:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert Jackson The cylinders are full of pressurised CO2 gas - same as what is used to make pop fizzy etc Not sure what you are thinking of using them for or how much training you have with them but easy advice is Dont touch the black nozzle when using and dont use in confined areas - 2 lung fulls of that and your brown bread mukka! Hope this helps Rj
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#5 Posted : 06 June 2006 17:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By AMJAD AL ATA Indeed it helps, Rj I am developing a manual for Fixed Fire Protection Systems (in power plant), and I was just confusing if CO2 is stored as gas or liquified gas (now it is clear). Regarding my tarining level: 1- I knew that CO2 extinguishing fire by reducing oxygen to levels that do not support combustion (smothering), so it can kill (suffocation hazard) if used in staffed close area (not like FM 200 or Inergen). 2- Also that when discharged it makes ice (why? this what you've told me in the last response) (must not be touched) (frostbite hazard). 3- It is suitable for class A & B fire, 4- colour code for portable CO2 extinguisher is black. Important note: I am not so good in English so my quetion may appear not as what I mean. Once gain thank you very much for the help. Kindest Regards Amjad
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#6 Posted : 06 June 2006 19:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andrew1 Amjad, The following information is from BOC Gases website (www.bocindustrial.co.uk). In general when you release C02 the cylinder draws heat from the outside in order to provide sufficient pressure to force the gas out in gas form. This drawing of heat around the cylinder rapidly decreases the temperature in the vicinity which causes the icing effect sometimes visible. In gaseous withdrawal cylinders the carbon dioxide is stored in the cylinder as a liquid with a gaseous phase on top. As the gas is drawn off the liquid boils and releases more gas. To meet the demand for more gas, heat must be absorbed through the walls of the cylinder at a rate greater than the latent heat of vaporisation (the amount of energy required to turn a liquid to a gas). However, there comes a point were not enough energy can be passed through to cylinder to create the gas and when this happens crystals of dry ice may be drawn into the valve and gas control equipment. Hope this helps Andrew
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#7 Posted : 06 June 2006 20:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By AMJAD AL ATA Andrew, Many thanks for the valuable addition & link (the picture now is so clear). Regards Amjad
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#8 Posted : 07 June 2006 15:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert Jackson Amjad just a quickie on your last post mate, under the EU ruling all fire appliances must now be red so if you are using black ones (co2) still then i would ask your provider to change these ASAP Regards Rj
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#9 Posted : 07 June 2006 15:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By AMJAD AL ATA Many thanks Rj, you know we still using the old (BS)colour code. Regards Amjad
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#10 Posted : 07 June 2006 15:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By AMJAD AL ATA Rj, I've forgot to ask you sending me a link or other detailed information about the new EU colour code for extinguishers (I've googled it but found no usefull thing). Thanks in advance. Regards Amjad
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#11 Posted : 09 June 2006 15:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert Jackson Amjad just read your response apoligies for the delay, read this extract below and follow the link to further details - this document should answer all Fire related issues in your workplace Hope this helps Rj Fire extinguishers may be colour-coded to indicate their type. Previously, the entire body of the extinguisher has been colour-coded, but British Standard EN 3: Part 5 (which came into effect on 1 January 1997) requires that all new fire extinguisher bodies should be red. A zone of colour of up to 5% of the external area, positioned immediately above or within the section used to provide the operating instructions, may be used to identify the type of extinguisher. This zone should be positioned so that it is visible through a horizontal arc of 180° when the extinguisher is correctly mounted. The colour-coding should follow the recommendations of British Standard 7863 Link http://www.archive.offic...cument/fire/contents.htm
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#12 Posted : 09 June 2006 15:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By AMJAD AL ATA Rj, All thanks. Amjad
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#13 Posted : 09 June 2006 17:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By TBC Black Co2 extinguishers and indeed any other old styles and colour codes are still Ok in use as long as they are serviceable. Where does it say you have to change them?
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#14 Posted : 10 June 2006 22:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By Allen Higginson Unless (as is the case here) it is a fixed extinguishing system (usually activated but not always by automatic detection in a transformer room,boiler house etc.) where the cylinders usually are 90KG gross weight,in banks and are red!
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#15 Posted : 10 June 2006 22:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kate Graham You can definitely keep the old-colour ones while they are still useable, but you are not supposed to mix the old and new colours together.
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#16 Posted : 10 June 2006 23:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By TBC Yes - you can use old style until are past there sell by date i.e. no longer serviceable. It is good practise to keep old ones together though e.g. if you have two warehouses or two floors in a building try and keep the old extinguishers together and the new together. It will help to avoid confusion if ever they need to be used - and ensure the ID above the extinguisher also has the correct info. On the fixed systems - whether old or new the info signs will be highly visible.
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#17 Posted : 11 June 2006 07:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kate Graham If you want an authoritative source for the colour-coding issue, look at Part 2 of the relevant guide at http://www.dclg.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1162101, it's clearly stated that you can keep the old ones while serviceable. If you are responsible for fire safety in your organisation you should read the whole guide anyway. Kate
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#18 Posted : 11 June 2006 11:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By AMJAD AL ATA Thanks to you all for responses; In the first psot, I was meaning fixed CO2 system, whcih as you said (red cylinders) together with information sign (CO2 Protected area ..etc) fixe in the entrance to the protected area. But regarding protable extinguishers we still useing the old one (totally black)(servicabl). In future if my employer going to purchase new one I am sure they will follow the new color code so the idea to separate them upon distribution, is good idea. Once again many thanks Amjad
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