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Posted By Healthy Debate
Hi all,
It's my first thread so I'll start with a good one to get the ball rolling!...
We're recruting for a safety position. The law says a person taking on such a role must be 'competent'. There's no mention of IOSH being a statutory requirement so why do employers always ask for it?
Discuss =:)
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Posted By BS
Interesting thought!
Is this anything to do with CPD. To be a memeber of IOSH you need to prove that your H&S SKATE.
Therefore by being a member of IOSH employers can get and incline of your credibility.
This is only an opinion and I am happy to be corrected
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Posted By Merv Newman
Maybe because we have a better reputation for competence than do members of other H&S organisations.
Don't we ?
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Posted By 9-Ship
Because IOSH are the most widely recognised group/organisation interested in workplace safety - note I have not said the best....
Therefore in theory all members should be able to demonstrate adequate competence in their chosen area or expertise/knowledge.
Competence comes in many colours, just because you are a member of IOSH doesn't automatically make you competent - for example I have 10yrs experience/membership but know just about nothing about biological safety.
So a degree educated biologist who is NOT an IOSH member or qualified in 'safety' in any official capacity would still be more competent than me, on his/her area of knowledge.
Hope this helps
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Posted By Healthy Debate
Ship...
That's a fair answer.
But it think we're at a stage where employers just include it in their job descriptions automatically, without really bearing in mind the angle you've explained.
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Posted By Max Bancroft
The important thing about being competent is that you KNOW that you know nothing about biology but also that you will:
a) find out and learn if your job requires it and
b) you know a (wo)man who does.
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Posted By IT
They Ask for it becuase IOSH does a good job at promoting itself as the representative of Safety professionals. Which usually means that recruiters don't always do their homework and know of the 3 or 300 more organsations that also represent competent Safety persons.
IIRSM,IRM etc etc etc .
Being a member of any organisation does not make you competent either simply by being a member ,this has been debated and debated in these forums.
Recruiters advise employers to ask for IOSH membership because they dont know any better and it makes their life easy .
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Posted By Stupendous Man
I think that we have to look at the bigger picture here. Managers and company owners cannot be experts on all aspects of their business, although they may specialise in one area. At least by asking for an employee who is a member of a recognised and relevent professional body, the employer can take a certain amount of assurance that the professional body has checked the competence of their members.
For example - if I were to start a H&S consultancy I would be more than comfortable at ascertaining the competence of H&S professionals through questioning and evidence from applicants without even requesting membership of a professional body. However, when it comes to employing an accountant or legal advisor, I would have the choice of either using a specialised recruitment agency (potentially at high cost), or relying on the membership of a professional body which, in most cases, will demonstrate a level of competence.
Obviously there will always be exceptions and variations to the above, but I do think we must appreciate that membership of professional bodies will be a selection criteria for some roles.
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Posted By Andrew Cartridge
Why do you call a vacuum cleaner a "Hoover", works the same with employers & IOSH it's easy.
MD asks "are you recruiting the right person?" HR response " yes, we've asked for IOSH candidates"
Regards
Andy
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Posted By Dave Wilson
An 'employer' is the one who deems whether someone is competent or not, at what level in line with the responsibilities they have, they have to ensure they have the IIT and resources to undertake the work allocated to them.
One of the ways they can do this is by 'professional accreditation' from a reputable Professional Institute, IOSH etc is the one in the UK however there are others. If you are a 'member' of IOSH then you have to undertake CPD (same as other institutes) this says to a prosepective employer that you are 'up to date with H&S etc' (Debatable!!!). This makes it easy for an employer to get a baseline of competence the rest is on experience, Interpersonal skills and if the interviewer & HR dept like you!
But its a strange old game as the majority of employers out there do not understand the different H&S qualiications, Institutes etc.
IOSH/BSC/IIRSM/ ROSPA Chartered, Fellow, Member, Affiliate, NEBOSH DIp, Cert BSC Dip, NVQ4/5/6/100 etc how is an employer without a scooby doo going to understand what he needs.
NEBOSH Cert Minimum £40k-£50k as head of safety and MIOSH by examination Safety lackey offering £18-£20k.
Now the problem with this is that employers do actually do this which has a knock on effect where AMIOSH , AIIRSM holders believe they could be the Head of H&S at a manufacturing plant etc
They could if there role was purely managing a team of Safety Professionals and actually took their advice, in essence this is happening already its called your MD!
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Posted By Max Bancroft
Thanks Dave - clearly set out & understandable. At the end of the day the employer is responsible and he needs the best advice he can get. One day he may have to justify his decision. We can imagine the following:
Prosecuting advocate: Tell me - who was your competent person under Reg 7(1)of the Management Regs.
Employer: my old mate Max Bancroft who did a 10 day TUC Safety Rep course in 1976.
OR
Employer: Max Bancroft who started off as Safety Rep in 1976 and joined IOSH and is now a Chartered Member and a Chartered Safety and Health Practitioner undertaking Continuous Professional Development.
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Posted By Kieran J Duignan
As a matter of fact, employers do NOT ALWAYS ask candidates for evidence of competence in the form of IOSH membership. Whether they should is a different question.
The reason that establishing competence is complex is twofold. One is that there are levels of competence, from minimal or 'threshold' competence, to world-class. The other is that threshold competence levels change over time, according as research and practice establish new forms of understanding.
Chartred membership of IOSH provides an employer with an assurance that a person has been validated as showing evidence of at least threshold competence in applying knowledge about safety and health in work environments. Employers who don't ask for such evidence may lack competence in leadership and company direction.
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Posted By Andrew Cartridge
I agree with all of the above, but have you ever asked your, or any employer what do the initials I.O.S.H stand for? & what benefits does it give your company.
I did, & one of the responses was " oh it's the health & safety thingy that all safety people have to be in"
Give me strength........................
Andy
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Posted By Dave Wilson
IOSH - any idea how many requests for confirmation of members qualifications do you get annually? Ballpark!
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Posted By J Knight
Dunno, my lot asked for MIOSH (as was) because they were advised during the recruitment process by a FIOSH, who did understand what the added value is; they also asked for RSP, by the way, and I think that's the key difference between IOSH and the '3 to 300' other safety organisations out there. I have been MIIRSM (dropped it when I got bored with the magazine), and to my knowledge they never asked me what I was doing to maintain my skills; 'oh, you did Dip2 once so you can still pay your £100 and keep your card'. For RSP, and now for CMIOSH, I have to be prepared to state what I've done to keep up to date, and there's always an off chance that I might have to justify it. Sure, CPD isn't perfect, and it is possible to blag it, you can blag anything, but I take it seriously, and I reckon most others do. So as MIOSH,RSP my prospective employers knew two things; i) I had a certain level of qualification and ii) I was prepared to make efforts to keep up to date. Did that mean they just gratefully gave me a job? No, I had to attend an interview, and the FIOSH bloke made me sweat, and at the end of it I was that day's lucky candidate.
If they have had decent advice they ask for MIOSH (or CMIOSH) in the same way as I would ask for a Chartered Surveyor if I was buying a house; it doesn't guarantee that he/she is any good, but it does at least tell me some of the things I need to know,
John
PS None of the above is intended to imply that CMIOSH is the only indicator of competence; I have met and worked with Safety people with all kinds of qualifications from degrees to none at all, and in every case the most reliable indicator has been their experience in the workplace; but that's always the bit you check at interview.
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Posted By The toecap
A most interesting subject. On construction sites you get the good joiner promoted to site manager and then contracts manager etc. But my gripe is that just because a person is a good joiner it dosn't mean he is a good manager. Like wise with safety, a good safety juinor doesn't necessarily make a good safety manager. A good safety manager, i believe, needs to attack the causes of accidents and not keep producing stats, and posters and leaflets etc.
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Posted By Ali
I think the answer to that is because employers then don't have to assess competence, which makes the job easier !In my job, competence is a mixture of training, qualifications, knowledge and common sense. Applied to Contractors we would additionally ask for affiliation with recognised trade organisations and appropriate liability insurance.I don't know if this helps.
Ali
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Posted By David Horenr
Membership of IOSH demonstrates a reasonable level of base competence whether attained by a competence assessed route or by examination. To stipulate “Membership of IOSH required" removes any possibility of discrimination relative to individuals particular needs and / or preferences.
David Horner
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Posted By Healthy Debate
Andrew...
Excellent example! Many employers probably don't know what the IOSH initials stand for.
Dave...
Good point about the membership verification. I believe IOSH have 30,000 members so how may requests do IOSH get each year to verify membership levels? I wonder if we'll ever find out!
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Posted By Patrick Guyomard
Why are you concentrating on safety? Why not ask the same questions for HR (CIPD), Marketing (CIM),
Managers (CMI) etc. etc. It may be that's it's just to save time in the management selection process, by getting the 'professional' organisations to set the height of the first hurdle for them. There again they could just be bone idle - who knows.
Pad
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Posted By Dave Wilson
I agree these should all be checked, on the front page of The Plymouth Evening Herals the other day was a bloke who was in court as he was employed as a Nurse and had no qualifications, easy to spot if all around you are the same trade.
As a H&S Professional you can, within reason, say whatever you like to your boss, client etc as they will not have a scooby doo about what you are saying and you are not likely to get found out.
So if you are employing a 'Professional' in whatever capacity its always good policy to check and check the refrences as well, even when getting a consultant in!
I have filled in applications in the past for Agencies and even had ONE interview no one has ever asked me to produce my qualification certs apart from BA
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Posted By Max Bancroft
That's really interesting Dave about not being asked for sight of certificates of qualifications when you got offered jobs!
When I was accepted for my current job I was asked to bring along originals of my various qualifications. These were looked at and copies put into my personal file. But then I work for a public sector outfit where they have to follow the formalities due to auditors from Govt coming round regularly to check thinngs out.
I must admit that, even if not asked, I would turn up with certifcates etc
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Posted By Chris-A
I have never had a problem getting a job with my level of Qualifications and Experience. I am not a member of IOSH through choice, but I am a current member of the IIRSM.
At the end of the day, I agree with Dave though that many of the current employers have no real idea what IOSH is and what it stands for. That’s why they use Safety Recruitment Agencies - whom should know what level of job to pitch a candidate at, well mostly ;)
There have been many debates on this forum regarding the benefits of MIOSH and MIIRSM – some may say that it is industry standard to have one or the other (or both)– personally, when I get to interview… that is when I either get the job, or don’t, as most employers whom have interviewed me thought I knew a lot because I had some letters after my name :)
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