Posted By Steve B Not all offices are fitted with air con, mine is not and its hot. I suppose if you want to go back to basics here, risk assessment, considering you are planning on moving it would not be classed as reasonably practicable to fit air con. and believe me we have air con in some of the larger offices one half of the office is moaning its to hot the other its too cold. you cannot please everybody all the time and some people you cannot please any of the time, so go along with the manager in this case and do what is reasonable, plenty of breaks away from the VDU, ensure plenty of fluids are available. and monitor it ongoing. be very careful with any vulnerable employees you may have, Pregnant, sick, young etc. there is no pleasing us Brits..... Regards Steve

Posted By Jim Walker Hi Bunny, Am in full agreement. Do you notice how the complaints all come from paper shufflers? How do the poor lambs think foundry workers (hot physical job all year round) manage?

Posted By The toecap I agree with Bunny. I worked in the last Gulf Conflict, loading ships during the night time and trying to sleep during the day in the heat. Why dont people just get on with it. Plenty of fluid and reasonable breaks from work places. What more do they want?

Posted By Les Fullwood Well said Bunny!

Posted By jackdaw I agree, we had a couple of pregnant women working in our offices (90+ degrees due to layout of building) complaining about the heat - told them to stop moaning and get on with it - they're not ill after all, just pregnant - it's not as though they work in a foundry. Just one thought though - why do we bother asking people on DSE assessments, etc, whether they consider the temperature to be okay if we're not bothered with the answer? Another thought, air conditioning units can be hired for short periods at relatively low cost. Another thought, do working conditions affect productivity? More work might get done if conditions were a bit better.

Posted By Jim Walker Big problem with text is people can't see when you are using sarcasm (Sp?)as I think Jack was. Many of us deal with "real" heat exaustion risks on a daily basis, and not just that week when the weather gets a bit hot.

Posted By Bill Parkinson Whilst I agree with some of the comments made by Patrick especially the one reference remarks to expectant mothers (some grounds for harassment and sexual discrimination there)I am not able to agree with all of them. I work in an organisation where mandatory fresh air breaks above 22 degrees would not be acceptable as we cannot have nurses and care staff walking off for breaks all the time as the patients left would get somewhat upset! A flexible approach is required as well as considering the HSE publication on Thermal Comfort which outlines various methods to consider where excessive temperatures. We also have a problem with air conditioning as this could introduce infection risks (which you will need to include in your COSHH assessments)and this can also lead to fatigue issues as the air becomes too dry. I have also worked in an industry sector where working inside acoustic enclosures took place with an air temperature of at least 80 degrees and a surface temperature in places of 300 - 400. This introduced the risk of heat syncope which causes the body to shut down and unless treated rapidly can cause death in a matter of minutes but this could be controlled through flexible working arrangements and other practicable methods. There is no one single solution and a combination is usually required unless we have a magic safety wand!! Employees have a right to raise concerns and whilst I tell people I don't have all the answers I would not want them to stop raising concerns. If they go directly to the enforcing authorities then you will face some searching questions and "get on with it" will not be acceptable! Bill

Posted By Bill Parkinson I too agree we should be sensible that and practical in our approach to health and safety but that does not mean we should dismiss things out of hand (the phrase "get on with it" implies that)and people do suffer as we are on a level 3 heatwave alert which means peoples health is at risk from the temperatures. We have had cases of people going into respiratory arrest at these levels of temperatures and these are not elder either so we do need to consider alternatives not just plenty of fluids. Also if a formal complaint is made to the HSE it will automatically trigger a response from them to you and if you do not answer it properly you will get a visit from them. I can tell you that from personal experience!

Posted By J Knight Hi Folks, Hate to be a pedant, but it helps to read the ACOP: '46 Where the temperature in a workroom would otherwise be uncomfortably high, for example because of hot processes or the design of the building, all reasonable steps should be taken to achieve a reasonably comfortable temperature, for example by: (a) insulating hot plants or pipes; (b) providing air-cooling plant; (c) shading windows; (d) siting workstations away from places subject to radiant heat.' If you ask me, and despite what I have advised my self, this is recommending aircon among other things. It is certainly a long way away from telling people to 'just get on with it', though I too think Jackdaw may have been employing sarcasm in making that remark. To me, you look at it in terms of a good old fashioned hierarchy of control, and providing cold drinks and rest breaks is taking measures to protect the indicidual, well below using mechanical means (air-cooling systems) in any hierarchy, though rearranging furniture might be a suitable half-way house. So first you have to rule out aircon on grounds of reasonable practicability; and I mean rule it out, not just claim it can't be done. Once aircon has been eliminated on grounds of cost or practicality, we provide cold drinks and rest breaks. We have premises, like Bill above, where we can't turn the heat down as they are care premises; these places are too hot even in winter. The heat in a foundry or process plant is very high and may not be subject to amelioration, however hard you try, but H&S like diplomacy is the 'art of the possible', and when a portable aircon plant retails for less than £100 and will raise smiles and output in any office, its hardly too much of a burden. Fair enough, this doesn't address greenhouse gas emission, but that's just the way it is in this case. So, I would suggest, if you can install cooling plant do it, John

Posted By jackdaw I didn't really have pregnant workers I told just to get on with it - I was simply mimicking, what I thought, were prejudiced, dismissive remarks of the previous contributors (trying to be a bit sarcastic). I'm also concerned about British industry / commerce, and I think that providing a comfortable, safe environment (even for office workers) will contribute to increased productivity - spending less time complaining and more time working!! Doesn't say too much, in my opinion, about a company that is willing to let it's workforce work in oppressive conditions.

Posted By Charley Farley-Trelawney Not quite on the topic, but air conditioning or to be more precise, air tempering is designed to provide a lower level of heat when required. As a datum line a consulting engineer would first need to establish a maximum temp to work to and what the minimum requirement was to be, i.e. 4 degree, 5/6 degree reduction, size of area, amount of people and BTU output of any other equipment. So, if a system has been designed to achieve a reduction from 26 degrees to 22 degrees when it is 35 degrees the remaining 9 degrees gets lumped onto the bottom end thus only achieving around 31 degrees. I mention this as my phone has not stopped ringing this last couple of days as to why the AC is not performing. There are of course other issues, indoor plant area, outside location for packaging units filter cleaning, loss of gas,etc etc. I thought I would clear up any confusion as to why the air conditioned folks are suffering as well. My own office is around 24/25 degrees, nice, as it is 10 degrees less than outside. Some indoor temps here on our 130 acres varies between (at the uncomfortable end)25 degrees and 32 degrees with 50 degrees in some of the plant rooms (no personnel in these areas) and my heat sensors sending the alarm systems into overdrive, we have of course created specific RA's and tried as hard as possible to keep everyone happy, regular breaks in an area that I am keeping at 21 degrees (conference area not used at the moment) (not always possible for other business, this I accept) rest legs every 60 minutes, chilled water made available, looked at any special needs, pregnancy, drugs (prescribed) purchased every fan for miles, sent non essential staff home, offered additional financial inducement to essential staff etc etc. Now whilst there will always be a side that slates what I have done there will always be another that finds it quite acceptable. As a HSEQ Practitioner I have tried as best I can to satisfy individuals needs, legislative requirements and any moral support appropriate. This country is suffering extremely high levels of heat, it WILL go, I am satisfied all that can be done has been done and future control measures will hopefully change as I throw thousands into creating a more acceptable level of comfort next year (when future spending allows) On the 'at home' issue, my office as mentioned is AC, my car is AC, when I arrive home and walk into my bungalow, AAAAAGGGGHHHHHH it is just so hot, fan does very little, gone off alcohol, sleeping is a real pain, but maybe the forecast is correct and it will cool down, trouble is like all buildings they retain the heat and it will take days before the benefit is seen. CFT

Posted By Sheila EJ Keogh and my cell (oops, office) mate has just suggested sitting in your car with the air con on for a few minutes to cool down.

Posted By Dave Wilson Every year its the same old same o, A/c is not a legal requirement and it is very expensive to install. These are probably the same people who maon it is to cold in the winter. For weeks now we have been saying "wish summer was here" well its here and now "wish the summer would go, it's to hot!" So we istall A/c increase fuel consumption, eject latent heat into the environment, so we stop moaning and build our nuclear Power stations to cope with excess demand for power, global warmiong, carbon emissions we are all doomed or we can carbon trade you can have your aircon but you have to give up heating during the winter and you must come to work by bus!. I'm with bunny on this we get on with our jobs to the best of our ability in all circumstances. So we have rest breaks from heat, fag breaks, normal breaks and lunch so 3 hours work a day then. Can I ask if this was your company and you had to get out there and make a crust would you say "Na not today it's to hot!"

Posted By Patrick Teyhan Firstly, I would like to thank Jackdaw, Jai, Bill P, J Knight, Booney, CF Trelawney and Sheila and Bunny for sharing their experience with fellow forum members, good examples of the use of "common Sense" in (most cases) the real world of work, thank you. Just in case anyone was in any doubt the actions I suggested where not set in stone physical activity and exposure would have to be taken into account and Health monitoring would also have to be taken into consideration, I would like to thank my colleauges for enhancing this point. It was also not my intention to impune a fellow forum members professional status or credentials and if "B" feels that I have done so, then I am quite willing and able to apologise publicly. The intention behind my original reply was quite clear, if as a Health and Safety professional you condon Jackdaws sarcastic remark (Jackdaw - took it on face value, p.s. I don't do hints either, its a Patrick thing, this string turned out to be quite an expose in the end)or the sentiment behind it, should be ashamed. It must be my age! the years of first hand experience, the quality, substance and retention of my training and perhaps belonging to this professional body and being able to gauge the views of other Health and Safety practitioners which I truely value. This is then why I have a fundamental problem with the view of some health and safety professionals (Risk Managers I call them) holding up Guidance Notes and the minimum requirements of Approved Code of Practice as something to attain? Profit before welbeing! Have the training organisations deserted the teachings principles and philosophy of Hertzberg? The Robens principle to workplace Health Safety and welfare has stagnated and in danger of disintegration in the name of turning a crust. Am I an old fossil by thinking that when a person who is in a position of responsibility for the health and safety of our Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers and soon to come their Daughters and Sons, the people who work with you, the ones that are on the same payroll, the people who are trying to make your role easier by reporting their health and safety concerns and problems (in vain) only to be labled as Moaners who moan for moaning sake? I know I am right to get very upset by this practice. I have experienced and challenged this management style at first hand at all levels of management and I will always do so. There seems to be a new H&S movement populating the workplace. I often ask myself if it is the fault of the training organisations / institutions as to what is actually being taught these days? Why is barely minimal compliance to a minimum standard being held up as a badge of honour! I know that there is no maximum temperature for working in an office - make the change set a reasonable temperature limit and implement control measures / actions at certain temperatures, this is something that is going to continue year on year and as our colleague pointed out it is going to get worse with all the carbon emissions being forced into the atmosphere and not allowing the earths natural ambient heat to escape ( I believe David Attenborough is extremely concerned with the amount of Airplace travel our generation is contributing to green house gases carbon emmissions and the speed at which the ice caps are melting) this aside have the courage to change what you can, construct a simple environmental policy in your workplace and have it ready for implementation for the heat wave that we will experience next year, include it in individuals risk assessments. For those of you who do not know and for apologies for those of you who do, the Main Principle of Occupational Health, Safety and Welfare in the workplace is to promote Health, Safety and Welfare, in other words improve on the heatlh and safety standards that have been in place for thirty years. Regards Patrick

Posted By Bunny Patrick, You have a very condescending attitude that I personally don't appreciate. Don't try and preach to other professionals about what health and safety is about thank-you. Perhaps you should instead try to understand where a large proportion of your fellow professionals are coming from. Just becuase you're a 'fossil'(you're words) doesn't mean you know it all, or that you're right.

Posted By Steve B Well said Bunny, I think you have said, very diplomatically what alot of us were thinking. Preach the gospel to the unconverted. Regards Steve