Posted By Sue Powell
Having asked for confined spaces risk assessments from a lift installer as part of the competency checking, one response has been that it's widely recognised that in nearly almost every circumstance a lift shaft is not defined as a confined space as identified in the regulations and - that by applying a general rule that lift shafts are confined spaces, then theoretically the lift when it is operating normally in such an area would be carrying passengers who could be exposed to the same hazards as maintenance staff.
If there are people out there who are more experienced/specialist in this area could anyone clarify the issue for me.
My immediate view is that people working within a lift shaft at some points must be working by the very nature of the job in a confined space. But I'd very much appreciate some other views on this one.

Thanks to anyone who may be able to add their two-penneth.

Sue

Posted By garyh
The Confined spaces ACOP defines a Confined Space thus "any place, including any chamber, tank, vat, silo, pit, trench, pipe, sewer, flue, well or other similar space in which, by virtue of its enclosed nature, there arises a reasonably foreseeable specified risk".

I have a lot of experience of Confined Spaces but not of lifts; I would certainly deem a lift shaft a confined space. I also think that the hazards of a lift shaft (apart from the obvious) are very different to the lift car itself - the lift is enclosed and has doors that open regularly. The lift shaft itself may or may not be well ventilated..........what about the bottom of the shaft where gases could collect. Depends I would guess on environment, to an extent (eg on a chemical or steelworks you would always have this isue at the back of your mind).

In my view a lift shaft is clearly a confined space.

I bang on and on about this but would say again, NEVER TAKE CHANCES WITH A CONFINED SPACE.

Posted By Kevin Drew
The fact that a space is confined doesn't make it a "confined space" under the terms of the ACoP. As Jane so rightly says there has to be a specified risk. Without knowing what goes on, or is intended to go on in the building in question it is not possible to make the judgement. For example, if there is no risk of loss of consciousness or asphyxiation arising from gas, fume, vapour or lack of oxygen it would be hard to see how a lift shaft could become a confined space? I would have also thought that the motion of a lift going up and down a shaft would largely discourage the build up of any gases, etc at the bottom of the shaft.

Kevin Drew

Posted By Tabs
The answer is wholy dependant on location and use.

If the bottom of the shaft (the well) is adjacent to or near an un-bunded storage tank, or an exhaust pipe from a generator, or has a large water pipe running through it, etc., then there is a foreseeable risk of gasses, solids or liquids being a problem, and it would be a confined space.

If the lift car hasn't been used for a long time the air might not have been stirred and should be checked before entry.

If however the well is remote from any such risks, and the lift car is used regularly, then the well would not be a confined space.

Posted By Adrian Watson
Dear Sue,

Regulation 1 (2) of the regulations defines "confined space" as meaning "any place, including any chamber, tank, vat, silo, pit, trench, pipe, sewer, flue, well or other similar space in which, by virtue of its enclosed nature, there arises a reasonably foreseeable specified risk;" and

"specified risk" as meaning "a risk of -

(a) serious injury to any person at work arising from a fire or explosion;

(b) without prejudice to paragraph (a) -

(i) the loss of consciousness of any person at work arising from an increase in body temperature;

(ii) the loss of consciousness or asphyxiation of any person at work arising from gas, fume, vapour or the lack of oxygen;

(c) the drowning of any person at work arising from an increase in the level of a liquid; or

(d) the asphyxiation of any person at work arising from a free flowing solid or the inability to reach a respirable environment due to entrapment by a free flowing solid;"

Therefore it is not a confined space within the meaning of the regulations, unless by virtue of local conditions.

However, the base of the lift shaft is a dangerous place because of the restricted access and egress, and the presence of the lift above. As such if the work were uncontrolled or uncoordinated there is a risk of serious injury or death. As such any work inside the lift shaft would be subject to a permit to work system.

Regards Adrian Watson

Posted By Stuart Nagle
I would agree in principal with a number of the responses above. However the
decision as to wether the lift shaft is, or becomes a confined space will depend
on the results of a risk assessment of the tasks being carried out and the hazards and
risks associated within the surrounding area.

for example, to inspect a lift shaft the shaft will most likely not, under
normal circumstances become a confined space, but obviously in the event of an
accident where rescue may be necessary, certainly confined spaces aspects may
well apply. On the other hand for example, if welding work was being carried out in
the lift shaft or the use of cleansing chemicals (or possibly the transportation of
chemicals as mentioned above) then the lift shaft would become a confined space
as there would be a reasonably foreseeable specified risk (gas, fume vapour etc).

Generally, the greater risk for works in lift shafts is working at height and
the risks associated with persons being injured or killed by lift car movement
whilst working in the shaft of lift pit. I personally lost a good friend
(an electrician) a number of years ago who was crushed to death in a lift car pit by
unauthorised lift use whilst the lift was being worked on, so i am all too
familiar with lift shaft hazards.

So no, a lift shaft is not generally a confined space unless what you doing
or nearby processes make it a confined space through the presence of, or
likelyhood of a reasonably foreseeable specified risk arising in the shaft...

Stuart

Posted By Sue Powell
Thanks everyone for your input.

My specific interest was in relation to the installation of lifts but your views have been very informative.

Sparked off more of a debate than I anticipated?!

Thanks again - feel free to continue the thread people if you feel its worthwhile.

Sue

Posted By Christopher Kelly
Re consideration of gases at the bottom of the lift shaft - there are some gases which are lighter than air and so there may be a confined space risk at other levels within the shaft.

Under normal circumstances the shaft is a confined space as it has the potential to contain something which is hazardous but with risk assessment by the installer and continuing controls then the shaft can be made safe to operate the lift car with people within it, under normal circumstances.

When work is being carried out then it is more likely that hazardous substances will be generated and the shaft should be treated as a confined space. If two lift engineers are working on two adjacent lifts at different levels, carrying out different activities, they may only be separated by a metal grille which will not prevent gases travelling across to the adjacent work area. It is possible that one might be carrying out hot-work at high level and the other is at the bottom - clearly this would be a confined space.

Obviously it is all down to risk assessment.

Regards,