Posted By Scottie CMIOSH
I started to write the same comments a while ago. I called it "Jeremry Clarkson is not wrong" and it was removed by the moderators as people started to attack Mr C which was not my intention. I worry that, judging from the postings, we are a profession that does not really understand the science behind what we are trying to do and that line management would be better placed to make safety decisions for their workforce. The policeman type attitude is what gives us a bad name - we should be in the legislator / politician / policy maker role to do real good. Of course there will be fewer opportunities if we were senior managers - acting as the social concience of the businesses and not the law enforcer.

This makes us consultants (as in the medical sense) - sort out the business and move on.

I agree - no more big salaries unless you are really good.

Bet this provokes a response!

Posted By Scottie CMIOSH
Veni Vidi Vomiti?

Posted By Steve Lamb
Of course we're needed.

As we successfully educate, we pass ownership of the problems to the people closest to them. They propose the solution and are happy. Then, they think that, as they have solved the problem, they are marvellously talented and capable. They also become complacent. As the time since the last major incident increases, the emphasis on H&S reduces and the resources dwindle. The conditions worsen until another major incident occurs. The cycle continues until one or more people die and the company closes.

Enter the H&S Professional whose job is to, like Satyr of old, sit, hoof in mouth, muttering darkly and comically about the parlous state of affairs and how things should be better. Try likening ourselves to the bloke the Roman emperors had walking behind them in the triumphal parades saying "You are human, you are fallible". We are the string to the successful employees' balloon-like fanciful self-image of being a thoroughly competent risk analyst - we keep them in contact we the ground.

Look at McGregor's Theory X & Theory Y: we hope for Y-type managers but always get X. THAT is our justification for existence and why managers will always regard the exercise of personal responsibility as a 'dark art' and something they will pay others to do.

Posted By MSE
Crikey!

Posted By J Knight
Well, I dunno. I sometimes wonder what I'm doing and why, but there is a use for us I think. On the one hand we're a good psychological prop for people who ask questions like 'can I do this?' or how do I make this safe?', and in my experience those questions never go away no matter how long I've been in a particular post.

On another hand we're part of the memory of any organisation, and what we are charged to remember is 'what went wrong the last time somebody tried to do what you're trying to do now'; other people keep track of the money or the employees, we simply keep track of errors and act to an extent to correct them.

On a third hand (I need at least two people for this experiment please) when we start out in an organisation that's not had any H&S support before, its remarkably easy to have a very large effect almost immediately. For example, the number of adverse letters from LA Inspectors to our shop managers has plummeted in the three years since I've been here, and making that happen was relatively easy.

Part of the reason for the cynicism is that its very hard to continue that sudden improvement once the quick fixes have gone, and sometimes some of the things people do to try and get a low incident incidence rate down still further can, as we know, be faintly ludicrous. But as long as hands one and two continue to operate there will be a need for us; certainly the world will always need us much much more than it will need the type of person who passes for a journalist nowadays,

John

Posted By David Bramall
Nigel

Please dont think that I am complaining about people getting high salaries, or that you are not worth your salary - this was not the point of the thread. I am quite sure reading your response that you are worth the money you get paid.

I simply wanted a consensus of opinion of what other H&S professionals think and whether, if we do a good enough job educating the workforce, letting them take the lead in health and safety and giving them responsibility for their own health and safety, will we ultimately make ourselves redundant.

Personally, I believe that we are still needed but I would welcome the day when we are not - it would certainly make the point that we have achieved the ultimate goal.

Zero fatalities, major injuries, dangerous ocuurences etc. etc.

I also believe that any individual, manager, supervisor, office junior, industrial worker, director, whatever wants to protect their own health and safety and that of their workmates.

Regards

DrB

Posted By Jez Corfield
Scottie & DrB

Your basic premis is flawed, and I dont even buy the concept that staff can generally do their own H&S.

Doing some risk assessments, the odd safe system of work etc is good, but it isnt looking after H&S, its working safely. We educate the workforce to work safely, and train them to manage some aspects of H&S, but we dont generally educate the full range of H&S management - if we do we create H&S people who then specialise in H&S, rather than being operational staff.

Remember, at its simplest (HSG 65), safety management is about:

Policy,
Organisation,
Planning and Implementation,
Monitoring,
and Reviewing.

Our 'educated' workforce do a couple of these things well. The other aspects are technical areas, which is why us, accountants, lawyers, and HR managers will be around for years to come.

Jez

Posted By AlB
It's much the sameness as a production manager - why are they needed if the workforce is trained to carry out the daily requirements? The Production Manager will have set up his shop to run as smoothly and efficiently as possible. Will we ever see them work themselves out of a job?

H&S is not about a daily potter around with a clip board noting down the number of people not wearing their hard hats or hearing defenders. It's about tackling the cultures that exist to prevent self-management of H&S risks. It is about reducing the risk to the business, reducing its liability, reducing time lost from damaged equipment, damaged workforce, absences, prohibition notices. And then its about finding solutions to make the workplace safer and ultimately more productive. It goes hand in hand and will always evolve and change.