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#1 Posted : 27 July 2006 12:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Durkin An ad-hoc committee I serve on, to run an annual street festival, has had an objection from a local resident, to the noise disturbance that our event could produce.The event is over the weekend(time 1100h to 1730h)He thinks that rock music is too loud but Jazz music would be ok as a compromise.In reality is there any measurements that have shown any major difference in noise levels(apart from music taste) Regards,Paul
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#2 Posted : 27 July 2006 13:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mike Herbert This would depend on the sound system in use and the skill of the engineer. Set a maximum SPL during sound checks with help from EHO noise squad. The times of day are reasonable by the sound of it (excuse pun) The dynamic of rock music is a little more consistant than with jazz which tend to rise and fall a lot. Personally i find the latter more irritating overall. Many genres of music have their roots in jazz so he left himself a bit open with that one. Standing by for a flaming!!! Have a good day Mike
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#3 Posted : 27 July 2006 13:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By Descarte One mans music is another mans noise My flatmates love jazz I personnaly think it is awefull, I like rock music they dont, If I hear jazz I cant stand it and have to close the door, probably same vica versa
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#4 Posted : 27 July 2006 14:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ali Notwithstanding the hours, which are very reasonable Music can be a Statutory Noise Nuisance under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 if it materially affects the comfort of the resident through annoyance, disturbance, intrusion. The crux is how much higher the levels are above the background noise, but only a Sound engineer or someone from your local Env Health Dept can say. Also, low frequency sound travels further through materials than higher frequency sound (eg bass guitar, drums).
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#5 Posted : 27 July 2006 14:27:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter PAul All music can be too loud if you turn the amp up enough but, as has been said many times, noise is unwanted sound. You can surely beg, borrow or steal (well, hire, actually) a sound level meter to use during the sound checks to make sure the music is only played at a reasonable level. It must be my age but most music at public events seems far too loud, these days. Paul
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#6 Posted : 27 July 2006 15:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Knagg Paul, Has the resident raised the objection formally through the objection process allowed by the Licensing Act 2003? Have you applied for a premise licence or a Temporary Event Notice for the event? A few tips and advice for you. Tell your sound engineer to point the rig away from the guys property, preferably at a hill with grass or vegetation on to avoid reflection. Then tell him at no time he should exceed 60dBA 15 minute continuous equivalent sound pressure level (LAeq 15 mins) at his front door. This is easier to achieve with live music than recorded music. Write you sound management strategy down and discuss it with the EHO sound enforcement officer before the event. Work together to agree the strategy. Keep rockin' and have a nice day! Recently looked after a festival that ran DJs on 4 sound stages till 06:00 in the morningin a rural setting with only 1 justifiable complaint which was dealt with swiftly.
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#7 Posted : 28 July 2006 08:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Glyn Atkinson Get a qualified sound engineer to push white and pink generated noise through the PA system - this will help to cut out frequency levels at shrill and bass frequencies, help to prevent any unwanted feedback and control the level of sound generated at the event. Most good sound engineers do this when setting up bands and PA's in strange shaped or new venues and make notes of settings for repeat bookings. You would be amazed at how this can stop complaints if the sound system is spread around the venue instead of speakers blaring at one side of a stadium. - Pink Floyd were the first big band to try cinema style surround sound to emulate the travelling of helicopters as part of their musical entertainment and visuals. More spread out speakers - less blare from one source !
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#8 Posted : 28 July 2006 08:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By garyOrange The event equivalent continuous sound level (Event Leq) in any part of the audience area should not exceed 107 dB (A), and the peak sound pressure level should not exceed 140 dB. Where practicable, the audience should not be allowed within 3 m of any loudspeaker. This can be achieved by the use of approved safety barriers and dedicated stewards, wearing appropriate ear protection. Where this is not practical, the overall music sound levels will have to be modified so that people closer than 3 m to the loudspeakers are not exposed to an Event Leq of more than 107 dB (A) or peak sound pressure levels of more than 140 dB. Under no circumstances should the audience and loudspeaker separation distance be less than 1 m. Regards Gaz
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#9 Posted : 28 July 2006 14:44:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Durkin Thanks all for your comments/advice. The objection will be heared by the District Council's licensing committee in August.The first complaint we have had in 14 years.But this guy is a serial complainer.Uses his Home Office e.mail title as a form of bullying.I am particularly interested where Gaz's source for an event Leq? Note this is in a residential street in a small town. Regards,Paul
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#10 Posted : 28 July 2006 16:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mike Herbert I would be interested in where those figures come from too. 140db is practically threashold of pain.!! 107db Leq over that period of time would also be quite a substantial sound level i would have thought at an instantaneous reading. Maybe i misunderstand. I recently worked on an outdoor event where the council specified 65db at the front window of the sensitive neighbour. It was acheived...but only just. I would imagine if you aimed for 85db at 20metres in your average street where the speakers were pointing away from your sensitive neighbour you would stand a chance. The noise levels coming off the stage before amplification can often exceed these levels anyway. In your event safety management plan you might make a reference to efforts to maintain reasonable sound levels and take this document to the licence meeting. I would be surprised if the application was refused just on the one objection especially if you showed efforts to cooperate and minimise any nusisance. cheers mike
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#11 Posted : 28 July 2006 17:05:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Knagg Paul, Get yourself a copy of the LACORS guidance document Managing Large Events (Licensing Act 2003) - a LACORS guide. Levels quoted are the examples given for the Glastonbury Festival as guidance. You would be advised to also look at the references to noise nuisance, affected or interested parties and the definition of vicinty in this document. Should help you present your case in the hearing for the event to proceed. The licensing authority also do not have the powers I believe to place conditions on your licence what style of music is played providing it does notconflict with any of the licensing objectives. If you only have one complainant, you should be able to find a sensible resolution.
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#12 Posted : 10 August 2006 11:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Durkin Thanks All, I found the LACORS guidance v.useful.Have now met with the local EHOs and they are v.cooperative.For the licensing 'hearing' next weel does anyone have any example SPLs for musical instuments/bands ? The only estimate,I have is 110dB(A) for a symphony concert(same,SPL as a baby crying !!) Regards,Paul
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#13 Posted : 10 August 2006 12:06:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Knagg Paul, Very difficult to control noise from a stage. What you need to do is agree with the Sound engineer a reasonable level that he will not exceed at the front of house mix point, make sure he has a sound meter that calibrates and says the same as yours during a sound check. Then get the mobile phone number of the event organiser and the Sound Engineer and give it to your enforcement team. This will focus the Sound Engineers mind on level control. If there are a number of sound engineers running the desk, there needs to be a senior engineer who takes overall responsibilty. It is difficult to set an absolute level. The best way is to agree the level on site and stick to what is agreed.You need to have some flexibility to review this. If you set the levels whilst there is no crowd and crowd background noise then you will find that the engineeer will need to lift the level when the crowd has arrived to compensate for the soak up effect of the crowd. A tolerance should also be agreed. Problems arise generally from drum kits and in particular cultural type drumming and from lead guitar amplifiers that are turned up loud by deaf guitarists with big egos in live music and dance or reggea recorded music with heaby bass response. A Proffesional sound crew will have the ability to get all this under control and use the equalisation on the system to roll off any problem frequencies. and where necessary turn backline equipment down. The key is team work. The difficulty is getting the balance between the customer expectation and experience and the noise nuisance. On the basis that you can't please all the people all of the time, you will never get a situation where everyone is completely satisfied. There needs to also be tolerance, if this is a one off event or annual event, there has to be a level of tolerance from the residents. the key to this is curfew times, finish at a reasonable time and let people get some sleep. The size of the sound system, dispersion, throw, design and direction can also play a part in the reduction of noise nuisance. The use of delay towers can help reduce the overall sound pressure and conncentrate the sound on the audience. Using natural soft landscape features to soak up the sound also helps. Point the rig at a hill covered in grass and trees and the sound won't reflect as bad as pointing it at buildings, glass or concrete. Hope this helps
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#14 Posted : 17 August 2006 13:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Durkin Thanks All, Had the PEL hearing yesterday. Won the case BUT,I am now lumbered with monitoring the stage all over the weekend.As one objector sympathised(sic),"Sounds(SPL)like Paul will be chained to the stage.To me sounds worse than my day job(ha ho)Pass me some real ale. Regards,Paul(Faversham Hop Festival)
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#15 Posted : 04 September 2006 14:40:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Durkin Hi All, Further to my comments,the complainer,has got in a consultant who quotes for a Noise Concil CoP for outdoor pop concerts.I cannot find the document in my google searches.The point of contention is SPL of 68dB(A) at the nearest residence !! Has anyone got a link to this document? Regards,Paul
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#16 Posted : 04 September 2006 15:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By pete41 I believe the publication is - Environmental Noise at Concerts (Noise Council, 1994) - and it provides guidance for those planning concerts. It includes music noise levels for both indoor and outdoor events and single and multiple events. I know what it is but haven't got a copy.
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#17 Posted : 04 September 2006 16:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Knagg http://www.association-o...potlight%20Pages/ETA.htm I have not got a copy, nor can I find one. the link takes you to an article that may be of use to you though.
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#18 Posted : 04 September 2006 22:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By Tony Brunskill Consider sending the complainers and their wives to a Spa Hotel for the weekend and save yourself thousands on consultancy fees.
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#19 Posted : 05 September 2006 09:10:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Durkin Thanks again all, Yes Tony,the local Chamber of Commerce offered him £50 to either go away or a set of ear plugs.The local press have been quite skathing.Even the Sunday Express got in on the act(Public Enemy no1)The CoP,is kindly being sent to me via the CIEH,library.On the Sat.he employed his own consultant to monitor the levels.Now all,I have to do is write up my version(never volunteer!!!)'Rock on' Regards & thanks Paul.
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#20 Posted : 05 September 2006 09:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Knagg Beware!!! I refer you to a recent case (last three years) of a very similar nature at the Colne Blues festival in Lancashire. A substantial sum of money was paid in compensation by Pendle Borough council to a resident who complained about music from the outdoor stage. I can not remember the full details, might be worth researching it.
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