Posted By Alan Hoskins Les, TU Safety Reps cannot "dictate" but they have to be consulted regarding H&S training plans. Alan

Posted By garyh I have come across very few Union safety reps who were positive and helpful! However I would take the chance and WELCOME the Union rep to have a short input; however, as training manager make sure that you get to see and approve her input - working together, with Union rep and Management in agreement, would really get the safety message across, I believe.

Posted By Merv Newman Personally, I welcome union participation in all safety activities. Training objectives, content and delivery should all be discussed beforehand, and rehearsed and revised just like any other training programme. Union reps often have a valid point of view which is not necessarily that of the management or even that of the H&S department. However, an invitation to participate and an opportunity to put their reasoned point of view to management and to colleagues is your opportunity to enable a more participative approach in the management of H&S. I would tend to guiding/mediating the union intervention to a shortish presentation and a longish discussion session. It is possible that the mediator (you) can have a hard time in keeping the discussions from falling into polemics, politics and "a cracked tile in the toilets" and other general acrimony. But, if you take the long view of building relationships between union, management and H&S, then you can take a lot of pleasure from such sessions. It can even be fun. (beat head against wall three times. Then stop. Doesn't that feel better ?) Merv

Posted By John McFeely It's unfortunate that some members of IOSH seem to froget that Health and Safety legislation, which is there to protect us all from being harmed at work, is lead mainly form the trade unions both at home and internationally. Do we all need a reminder that the HSC is a tripartate organisation which includes the Trade Unions. I think some members of IOSH also need to be reminded that Trade Union Representatives also hold Health and Safety qualifications and IOSH membership. Just for everyones information, the people at the coal face know if and when there is a problem before Management ever do. It makes sense to welcome any input from the Trade Unions, despite any political bias you as a manager might have. There is legilsation in place that insists on management consultation with Trade Union Represenatives and yet we still see management asking if they should consult or ignore the workforce represenative. One last point, Health and Safety will not work if the employees are not involved so if you have a Union Representative interested in Health and Safety I suggest that you make the most of their help.

Posted By TBC Agree with you John, let the union have an input. Question - If you have all the employed experts (5) with qualifications etc. Why do you also need a consultant?

Posted By TBC Bravo - Brian.

Posted By Paul kelly Well said both John's. I found the initial post very pompous and be-littling to all H&S Officers, Advisors, Reps, Co-ordinators and Managers who have taken the Union route to their current designation. Myself Included. For all of the qualifications and expertise that your company allegedly has, i find it quite amazing that you did not know that Union Reps must be consulted on all issues relating to H&S in the workplace. This can be checked in the 'SRSC Regs 1977'

Posted By Merv Newman A couple of responders have asked "why do you need a consultant" As a consultant (trust me) I am often welcomed by local S&H people because I bring an "outsiders" point of view and can have more influence on management than the local person. Sorry. I'll stop there as I have decided to put this up as a new thread. Merv

Posted By John Murgatroyd "By law, employers must consult all of their employees on health and safety matters" (giggle !) "Consultation involves employers not only giving information toemployees but also listening to and taking account of what employees say before they make any health and safety decisions" (more giggles !) "If a decision involving work equipment, processes or organisation could affect the health and safety of employees, the employer must allow time to give the employees or their representatives information about what is proposed. The employer must also give the employees or their representatives the chance to express their views. Then the employer must take account of these views before they reach a decision" (hilarity breaks out in the rank and file) I mean, let's face it..........just how many employers give a hoot about that guff above ? Let me see....hmmm....I've got two hands, 8 fingers and two thumbs......a possible count of ten.....none yet !!!!!!!! The phrase "uphill battle" springs to mind.... H&S costs. That's all that employers consider, the smaller the employer the higher (proportionately) the cost. The cost of an accident (although many of those could, and should, be classed as crimes) can easily be mitigated by not reporting it, helped by employees fearful of unemployment. All A&E departments will tell you that they KNOW that many workplace accidents come to them and the person injured will not admit to it occurring at work.

Posted By ITK As a poacher turned gamekeeper (former union H&S Rep now full time H&S officer) I think that the bigger picture here is communication and cooperation between the union and the employer. Why is your company so eager to avoid union input into a "management" H&S course, surely we all work to the same legislation? I used to have a them and us attitude and so did the employer when I was first elected, then after months of arguing we sat down had a coffee and decided it was much more beneficial to work together, as we all have the same objectives. I would politely suggest you work together with your union colleague not against them. Regards ITK CMIOSH