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#41 Posted : 16 August 2006 12:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Tabs
Jay

Whether you are the competent person or not, the 'ideal' is that the managers remain responsible for their branch.

Ideally they would be as competent as you.

Ideally if they are not as competent as you and they choose to rely on your services, they *should* follow your advice and complete the actions you have identified.

Ideally, if they disagree with any recommendation, they would tell you and you could either change it or convince them it is necessary.

Ideally, you would audit the completion and the maintenance of the control measures.

Ideally, we would only have to ask and something would be done.

Sadly it appears your site managers would rather have you do it all.

Unless you petition for the power to do it all for them (so you can commit their workforce and their budget to completing the tasks you identify) you will not get anywhere.

"Covering your back" is a term often used by those of us who have tried but simply don't have the political power to achieve what we know ought to be done. Distasteful. Welcome to the real world.

Petition the board to get H&S audit compliance as a key performance indicator for each site, for each manager's bonus/promotion.

In a world like yours, it will probably be the only way to succeed.
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#42 Posted : 16 August 2006 13:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Tabs
Jay wrote: A Whole hour and no reply!!!! I am hurt guys. really!!!

I am sure we all feel ashamed that we haven't kept the forum open on our pc's just waiting to offer you free help ;-)

Shame on us for doing our own jobs! (I am now whipping my back with a leather cat o nine tails)
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#43 Posted : 16 August 2006 13:12:00(UTC)
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Posted By SAF
Facilitate...
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#44 Posted : 16 August 2006 13:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By The toecap
Some people would pay a lot of money for that
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#45 Posted : 16 August 2006 13:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason911
I'll do it for free!

Jay
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#46 Posted : 16 August 2006 13:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By TBC
Do you really get paid £100k?
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#47 Posted : 16 August 2006 13:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Philip McAleenan
Some of these issues were addressed at the World Safety Congress last year. Below are a few paragraphs from a paper I presented at one of the sessions that examined competency and function in relation to prevention.

Within the competency definition there is an inference that the competent person has the resources necessary to act and the authority to decide appropriate actions. Without either the resources or the relevant powers of authority competence is negated and consequently the person is in the position where a breach of his duty of care becomes a distinct possibility.

Competence, as a concomitant to the duty of care, is a universal responsibility that must be exercised by all parties within the stakeholder framework, from the Board via the management team to production operatives, and between Government, private companies, contractors and suppliers.

The proper exercise of responsibility requires that all within the matrix of work not only hold the competences appropriate to their own post but give respect and due consideration to the competences and requirements of others within the matrix.

This means that everyone comes to his or her respective position or job competent to function in that role. Those with management and directorial responsibilities ensure that the people they manage are provided with adequate resources to carry out their jobs and have been given the authority to make all the decisions necessary to achieve a successful outcome. In general there is common agreement that the provision of sufficient resources is necessary for work processes to be carried out competently, whether those resources are human, material or financial. Statutory regulations and attendant codes of practice when addressing responsibilities regularly include a resources requirement, although what is frequently overlooked is that authority is a necessary adjunct to responsibility. How often has an individual been held responsible for a task or function where they have not been given the relevant authority to make the correct decisions necessary for success? That individual is usually the person subsequently held responsible or accountable when something does go wrong. Consequently responsibility is equated with blame, and blame has the habit of filtering down through the management hierarchy, rather than upwards.

Where each participant in a work situation is armed with the three elements, (authority, resources and competence) then the requirements for a preventative safety culture is met.

The belief that this [OSH] business is everybody’s business is steadily gaining recognition as a core value, among enlightened organisations but that does not happen automatically. It takes a conscious act to make it a reality and vigilance, commitment and competence to sustain the belief.

For the concept of prevention as a universal responsibility to become successfully embedded in the organisations’ values and effective within their operational methodology, an acceptable perspective on the roles of the various players in the organisational framework is required. Regardless of the socio-political environment in which an organisation exists it is fundamentally a holistic entity, whether it is a corporation wholly owned and controlled by a single individual or a co-operative owned and controlled by the all participants in the organisation. The effectiveness of an organisation is predicated upon each participant within the framework performing up to and within the parameters of their position and being influential in such directions as is necessary for the effective working of others. An effective organisation is comprised of a range of roles or positions that are necessary for and whose function it is to achieve the successful outcome of the aims, objectives and targets of the organisation. Each role has a clearly defined and necessary function that is occupied by personnel who are competent, resourced and in possession of the appropriate level of authority to control their particular task.

Roles that exists above and beyond the functions needed to successfully execute the organisation’s business are superfluous and create a draining effect on the vitality of core functions by abstracting from them authority, responsibility and resources. For example, if a financial manger exercises control over resources that should necessarily be controlled by operational managers, or a safety officer strays into the role of trying to manage the safety aspects of an operation the consequential outcome is to neuter the effectiveness and compromise the competence of operational staff. In the process you negate the practice of universal responsibility thus mitigating against prevention as a universal responsibility within each necessary function.

Companies using the OAC management model examine the requirements necessary for successful and therefore safe outcomes and ensure that the resources; human, material and financial, are in place to control their operations. The OAC approach is expandable from simple everyday tasks to the comprehensive task of governing the organisation. Its effectiveness requires that each functional role has a sphere of control and a sphere of influence. Individuals operating within the necessary functions must have the competence to manage within their sphere of control interacting with neighbouring functions to the extent necessary to co-ordinate their activities and communicate essential information, within each contributor’s sphere of influence. Overlaps within the sphere of influence exist to the extent that they support smooth operations. Greater overlaps lead to an unnecessary duplication of role and a subsequent reduction in organisational effectiveness.

Regards, Philip
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#48 Posted : 16 August 2006 13:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By TBC
You sound like you get paid £100k Philip.
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#49 Posted : 16 August 2006 13:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason911
Thanks Philip, did you not hear me say bullet points?

Jay
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#50 Posted : 16 August 2006 14:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Philip McAleenan
to quote the inimitable Del Boy, "This time next year, Rodney..."
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#51 Posted : 16 August 2006 14:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason911
yes or indeed 'you plonker Rodney'

Jay
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#52 Posted : 16 August 2006 16:10:00(UTC)
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Posted By R Joe
Jay, some suggestions - in bullet points!

· Identify the 5 best/worst examples of where non-implementation of actions carries the greatest risk of serious injury, or worse, occurring.

· Explain to your own line manager that you feel that you have a joint responsibility to bring this important issue and these particular examples to the attention of the MD because risk assessment is – or done well, should be – a foundation of the organisation’s approach, and the MD needs to be supportive of this. See what response you get, and then judge how best to approach the next suggestion.

· Arrange to talk to the MD candidly, and explain the importance of the situation and why you need their support. Make it clear that you felt talking to them directly in this way is much more appropriate than creating a raft of potential ‘smoking gun’ emails (particularly now that the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill has been published). Advise that a new/revised Risk Assessment policy and procedure approved and supported by them would be a good way to go. Ensure the new/revised Risk Assessment policy and procedure is explicit on ‘Agreement and Implementation of Actions’ and ‘Monitoring and Compliance’.

· In the longer term, the previous advice on ‘facilitating’ rather than ‘doing’ is spot on, and it’s worth reflecting on how the ‘resorting to the MD’ approach can be turned around at any new employer ie aim to get them on board as an advocate as part of your overall approach and strategy from day one. Maybe even raise this at the interview…they’ll either respect you for it, or alternatively, you’ll get an important insight into how they operate and the extent of the challenge ahead…...

Regards RJ
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#53 Posted : 17 August 2006 09:44:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason911
A big thank you to all those who contributed to this thread.

Although now as its the size of a small novel, nobody can still be bothered to read it me thinks.

Some interesting point of views and different interpretations of the R.A process came across.

Jay
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#54 Posted : 21 August 2006 14:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Hunter
I note that the thread repeatedly refers to 'recommendations' in the context of conducting Risk Assessments. Perhaps your problems are in part associated with this terminology, and subsequent issues surrounding authority, responsibility and accountability?
My assertion is that the statutory duty to conduct risk assessment is to identify what (if any)action is required to ensure that all reasonably practicable measures are taken to eliminate or reduce risk (i.e. suitable and sufficient). In this context then, a risk assessment should not contain a 'recommendation' rather it should contain agreed actions, timescales and identify who is responsible within the organisation for ensuring these things are done.
Practitioners routinely make 'recommendations' to clients or third parties both in terms of general compliance and on specific issues. They may well discuss possible alternative solutions on which the client/employers must decide, but in that context they will not be conducting, nor can they be held accountable for the validity of any related assessments, which must necessarily be the responsibility of the employer.
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#55 Posted : 21 August 2006 15:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason911
That is an excellent point Ron. Thank You
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#56 Posted : 21 August 2006 15:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham
If you are an external consultant, brought in to conduct risk assessment, possibly for one specific aspect of risk - as in my case -then you can only provide recommendations on the management of any such risks identified. It is then up to the client whether they accept and implement these or whether they decide either to ignore your report (yes, it has happened, with somewhat disastrous consequences) or identify an alternative solution.

For example, I have recently had a safety adviser insist, against my recommendation, that barrier cream was suitable as protection against a significant risk of skin contact with hydrofluoric acid! If management decide to accept his "solution", then there is little I can do, other than to make the potential consequences clear to the managers involved.
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#57 Posted : 22 August 2006 09:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jeffrey Watt
Chris

Maybe you should "recommend" said advisor perform a dip test in HFl.
That should sharpen focus.

Jeff
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