Posted By STEVE What to do when a employee alleges that he had a accident the previous day, which no one witness ed and he forgot to report 1hr after the alleged incident. Now appears he plays rugby Both site and my MD will not acknowledge the incident due to the individual only been given a introduction 6 days previous (need to report all incidents no matter how small) I have sought advice, and it is conflicting, MD is adamant he does not want it reported. How can we report on something that is only alleged by individual (no evidence) Who if in a worst case scenario would be held responsible if individual put claim in and his solicitor asked for Riddor report?. How do you stop an Individual from coming to work for 1 day then alleging he has had an incident that no one saw, dosnt like job quick easy money put a claim in? Cant get MD to give anything in writing, all verbal, does he have this right to call the shots? Steve

Posted By liam.b Yes I also agree that the MD has the final say and that’s were the buck stops. No wonder he will not put it in writing. Also accident/incident investigation and review any risk assessments, Policies and Procedures if necessary. However, I would certainly report it to RIDDOR cover yourself. As a part of our health and safety induction, new employees are required to have a full medical. This maybe something you should consider that if you are not already carrying this out as a part of your H&S induction.This is to make sure every new employee is healthy and fit also making sure no new employees are carrying an injury or injuries, which he/she may want to claim against your company at a later date. Some new employees are scared to report accidents so soon into their new employment for fear of being sacked or not being taken on permanent, in some cases employees have fallen and not realisethat they have injured themselves until the next day.Unfortunately, this is very frequent employees are claiming for accidents that no one has witnessed, and being successful in their claims. Whether he plays rugby or not it is irrelevant, he is entitled to play rugby if he wises to do so,As long, it does not effect his employment.This part was not meant to sound harsh, more fact To finish off make sure you cover yourself because it may come back and bit you.

Posted By Philip McAleenan Steve, when an employee "alleges" that s/he had an accident they are in effect reporting it to the company. It doesn't matter that it was the day following the incident, it is still within a reasonable time. The company now should investigate before coming to conclusions about whether it did or didn't happen and what the effects on the individual were. Philip

Posted By Philip McAleenan Not sound advice Pugwash. The MD needs more than a “view” that the accident did not occur; he needs to be “certain”, and certainty requires that the matter is looked into and acted upon in an appropriate manner. The length of time that an employee has worked for a company has no bearing on whether he had an accident or not. As for explaining why one acts contrary to the instructions of the MD in such a scenario, it is done on the basis that you are competent to do so. Furthermore no worker is required to carry out a wrongful instruction, or an instruction that will cause harm or lead to the commission of an offence, no matter who issues it. If you Steve or anyone else are members of a professional body such as IOSH, have a look at the Code of Professional Conduct and you will find that your professional integrity requires that you act in a professional manner with the interests of the workforce in mind. Philip

Posted By Pugwash I note your comments Philip and others but I am not persuaded. The duty holder under RIDDOR is, in this case, the employer. The MD, acting on behalf of the employer, has taken the view that the alleged incident did not take place and that no report will be submitted. If the health and safety department disagrees it can look for evidence to get the MD to change his mind but there should be no question of health and safety acting unilaterally and sending in a report. On another slant, Philip says ".....The MD needs more than a “view” that the accident did not occur; he needs to be “certain”....." before instructing that a report need not be made. I think I might want to put it the other way round and only report accidents which we are certain actually occurred and not spend time reporting accidents of which we are doubtful. In almost all cases there is no doubt at all whether an accident occurred so we are talking about only a very small number of alleged incidents. I appear to be the only one arguing in this direction. Anyone else want to take my side?

Posted By Mick Day I am a first time user on the website - i.e. adding to the debate. It is good to see that such an issue can generate some degree of interest and opinions. Is there not a Grey Area in that the HSE do not allow for a Riddor reportable accident to be removed from the data base, if after an investigation the individual is found not to have been injured at work........? Pugwash is correct in my opinion in offering caution with reporting it...., against the MD's wishes. If it is reported I would suggest that the job in which you are in as Health & Safety may not be the same again.....! Remember you are working for the company that he heads up. Question is as you have raised, worst case scenario.........courts, claim and lawyers.........! The company procedures may be looked at as being not robust enough, which would then fall on the side of the employee and his claim. Might I suggest contacting the HSE and asking their advice. This can by no way be the first case of this kind. Get it from the hosres mouth. Just be careful if you disclose you conatct details, the whole issue may then break out and your MD will know that you have gone behind his back. I have contacted the HSE on 2 occassions without leaving my work details, and had advice given no problem. It may sound harsh to the employee, but following induction and briefing on the accident reporting procedure and the timeframes for reporting have been adequately briefed....... the company should have a policy of defending the procedure and if not follwoed, it is made abundantly clear that potential claims may be affected. The procedure should howevr be closely looked at to see if it contains any guidance on dealing with this and similar issues of late reporting. Does anyone know of a request being made to the HSE to cancel a Riddor reportable accident on the basis of the investigation findings concluding that it did not occur at work............? If the HSE did allow this, this would possibly solve your problem, in that you could convince your MD to report it, with the accident being removed at a later date....., and ultimately not affecting his AFR, which ultimately may be the overiding factor in his decision and not the actual claim.

Posted By Tony Brunskill What if a witness turns up at a later date? Confirming the IPs story! Not only will this lay the MD and company open to the usual charges but may lead to offences under s37 of the Act. Not limited to the MD, if by your position you can be considered an officer of the company then you too may be proceeded against. My advice is report it, investigate it, if investigation leads to a gross breach of trust then take disciplinary action against the alleged IP. If you prove it not to be work related write to the HSE and request the report be expunged. They are likely to take a dim view if it comes to light that you deliberately failed to report it.

Posted By Lilian McCartney I've previously had two 'strange' accidents to report. One from an employee one year after the accident. When reporting it to RIDDOR I gave the reason for it being late (employee not advising management. The local HSE Inspector said that at least it was on record. The second was a slater who said his cut hand happened doing work for us. It was reported to HSE and then it came to light that instead of being at work he was doing a homer, somebody had seen him. The HSE were updated and this was added to the RIDDOR by them (employee then disciplined for not being at work when they should have been). So, you can update your RIDDOR's and report them late adding reason why. Would be very careful going against MD but try to persuade him it should be reported and if found later not to be true can be updated. Lilian

Posted By Alexander Falconer From some of the responses, I am a little alarmed by some of the advice given. In my opinion, irrespective of how and when the incident has been reported, the company still has the duty of care to investigate the incident itself (and the H&S professional covers his own legal and moral obligations) At the end of the day, whether or not it is a genuine claim for compensation, the onus will be on the alleged "injured party" to prove that there was indeed an injury resulting from that incident. Leave it to the insurance bods to disprove the claim All you can do is fully investigate the allegation, take pictures, make reports, get statements, etc, etc, the more investigation evidence you have the more chance a claim has of being reduced or thrown out. It is indeed unfortunate in this day and age, there are some who are still out to make a fast buck. The no win no fee claims culture requires to be overhauled to reduce the opportunity for shysters and chancers to claim.

Posted By Mick Day Steve, As the level of interest is high and advice / debate / opinion is plenty I have been keen to see what the current situation is. The HSE have stated ( no refernce to this, merely question on a possible issue like this one )that if it is an alleged accident at work, regardless of timescales for reporting ( an issue for the Company Procedures and HR Department ) then the accident should be reported. There is a section within the form to add any additional info which can refer to your case ....i.e May not have occured at Work .., Post investigation if it is found that the accident did not occur, again the report can be updated with this info. I would suggest telling your MD in the kindest of ways, that the Regs require the alleged injury to be reported. If a claim is made and this has not been done, this may be used against the company as a failure in procedures. If the MD knows that by simply reporting it, the issue if proven to be out of work will not affect his annual AFR in that it would be discounted. The proverbial will come close to your location I fear, if the claim goes ahead and the lawyers ask has it been reported. Straight away they will be looking to exploit not only the injury, but also the issue of company accident reporting ..........lack of it.! What might this say to the workforce in attempting to achieve the Positive culture that we all wish for....? Management failure to acknowledge/ dismiss accidents / incidents will only manifest within the company and bite someone on the big behind............!!!!!!!! You could also point out that the company insurers will not be too happy and possibly raise the premiums over and above the claim because company procedures appear to not be robust ........! Which ever way you go, document everything, emails, diary of events, not just for this issue but for all others..................! Failing all this get the numbers right on Wednesday night and enjoy life...............! Let us all know how things are going.................This is better than Who Shot Phil Mitchell ............which in my eyes is not a RIDDOR. ( Domestic issue I believe ...?)

Posted By garyh I have worked for large Blue Chip organisations (can't name them ) with very low accident rates. Situations like this were handled ruthlessly and by the book. I would say this:- if you are SURE that this is not work related, then don't report it under RIDDOR, period. Our mantra used to be, if it wasn't reported at the time, it didn't happen at work. Whatever you decide, keep a record - even an email copied to yourself, detailing the reasons for whatever your decision is, would be useful. Whatever you do I would not unilaterally report this - advise the MD or whatever (in writing, as above), then accept his or her decision. This should be a MANAGEMENT decision, advised by the SHE Manager / advisor, in my opinion. In general terms I find that a lot of people in this forum more or less say "report to be on the safe side". Thats all well and good if your organisation takes a relaxed view. However, many organisations (especially large Blue chip Multinationals etc) have as a measurement of SHE performance things like "reports to statutory bodies". So you cannot in those circumstances report "just in case" unless you want a call from someone very senior wanting to know that you are certain. And in the right job! To sum up, in my experience, if your have good reason not to report (and can back it up), then don't. If you believe it is reportable then report it or advise the Manager to do so. Always document what you did and why. The fact is, we are employed to Manage Safety, not read from the regs. This sort of are is a classic example of this.

Posted By STEVE Philip Why do you assume that this is a wind-up, just because I have not responded straight away. I always wait for a period of time, due to other members not being able to respond straight away, but can offer valid advice later. If you go to page 4(17/8/06) of the discussion Chat Forum you will get more information on this subject. I like many try to have time off from my role, when week-ends&bank holidays become available to spend time with my family. Update I have managed to verbally make contact with the individual, and still he has not provided any SSP Notification nor a doctors sick note after seven days which we have asked for. My MD actually went to the individuals home(26/8/06) to see if the Company could assist anywhere, the Individual stated not and that he would return to work today(29/8/06), guess what? he didnt nor has he made any attempt to phone in as per Company Procedures. Another failure on employee behalf. Let me tell you that as Industrial Cleaners , this type of work is not everyones cup of tea, so we get many transient workers coming and going. I have made a decision I have forwarded a email to my MD informing him of the legalities of RiDDOR,that he should inform our Insurance Company for additional advice and that I have witness statements from employees whom he shared a car with stating that he neither mentioned the slip to them or showed any sign of injury whilst in the car (actually told them he was of to get a new mobile and then go to the pub) I have forwarded the photos of the work area where the alleged incident was meant to happen. No witnesses to Incident, he was even "buddied up" due to being new on-site, and no mention was made to his work mate No previous problems with slips in this work area, and we have been doing the task for years(maybe we have been lucky)? Since the day I sent the individual home (day after alleged incident, from advice from Occ Nurse) onsite,for him to see his own GP,I have had no assistance from him to investigate this alleged incident. Has he left on his own free will?? , the day I sent him home, if so how can I decide if he is still an employee? If he has left on this day, it cannot be reportable due to him not being able to have 3 consecutive days off after I sent him home. Therefore I am not going to report this at this minute in time due to lack of assistance and evidence to follow the investigation through any further (rightly or wrongly) In our nature of work(contactors)we can employ individuals for days, wks, months or years dependant on contract, it is not unfamiliar for employees to leave without informing us, because of the nature of the work. RiDDOR states 10day period for report, surely common sense should allow for more time in circumstances like this to try and get facts, when the investigation is not straight forward Steve

Posted By Mick Day Just when I thought Steve your problems had ended it has just dawned on me that you should now seek advice from the Police as this may now be a missing persons issue.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe some of the comments in the smoking debate may help you.........., someone advises on the practicalities of shooting the person involved. Just kidding.......hope the rest of the week goes well for you. Would still be interested to know the final final outcome........., Being ex army i advise strong levels of discipline and a good sound thrashing to within an inch of their life..........! Dam the man.................!

Posted By Jonathan Hall There seems to be a conflict in some of the advice given between the "professional" duty of the H&S practitioner and the fact that we are (generally) meant to be advisors. At the end of the day, our duty should be to the employer, to inform them of their legal responsibilities and that an accident should be reported (and investigated). If in a case like this the employer makes the decision that an accident should NOT be reported, then that should be what happens. Definitely strongly advise them that they are acting against the law (if that is your view) - that is your moral and professional duty. If they insist on not reporting something that you feel should be reported, then advise them of the consequences (and start looking for another job with a more ethical employer). The accident should not be reported against their wishes or behind their back. Following this course covers you from the professional code of conduct and from the employment points of view. MDs are there to make decsions (properly advised) and stick by them knowing that they are the ones with ultimate responsibility. The moment that you as the H&S adviser (or whatever job title) go against them you are acting outside your job, duty and responsibility.

Posted By Ian Langston This really straight forward. Firstly if reported all events should be investigated. This applies even if they are reported a year or more after they purportedly occurred. If the report requires a RIDDOR notification, then so be it. What ever the result a suitable investigation should follow. (Suitable meaning in proportion to the outcome or if worse the ‘most likely’ outcome). So what is the legal position? Do not forget that the investigation of an injury accident is in effect a ‘criminal legal’ process so this has to be carried out following the prescribed rules. If following this the reported injury is considered false, then this possibly involves the alleged injured party in a suspected offence contrary to section 16 of the Theft Act ‘68’. This is serious stuff, far worse than any H&S offence in the eyes of the law. The organisation should be considering whether Police involvement should take place at this point and have specific policies in relation to ownership of information, cooperation, and process. What if the report is genuine, and one would hope that it was! Well this is a learning opportunity and in effect should be pursued in isolation from any potential witnesses. Openness certainly has been shown to provide the best route to causal identification. Do not forget that sharing statements with potential witnesses could cause damage to ones reputation and future order books. The correct processes must be understood. The best advice I can really offer is to look at the 4 day accident investigation course run by IOSH where all this information is clarified. Best wishes, Ian

Posted By Mick Day John, I too am up at this late hour.....we both need to lighten up......! email me using my email link off air. Interested in your thoughts Regards Mick

Posted By John Murgatroyd "that the employees will try to use the H&S advisor to their own advantage if it suits them" Of course they will, but to a much lesser extent than the employers who will deliberately do just that (he who pays the piper plays the tune ?) More to the point is that many of the threads on here, and the posters of same, seem to have little to do with "realtime" H&S and more to do with "corporate" H&S. ie: more to do with the H&S of the body corporate than with the body homo-sapien ! Take the start post of this thread. Nothing much to do with H&S, more to do with human resources. Why worry ? The guy will either come back (in which case he can be terminated, in an employment-type way) or he won't, and a solicitor will come calling (which won't happen, because in the real world employees have only a slightly better chance than a cat in hell) So, once we get past the truth of the matter, which is that employees are woefully badly protected, we can get to the nitty-gritty.......which is that H&S is a good career and that the employer pays to ensure that ON PAPER he is an ok guy, loves his employees and puts the sugar in their tea personally. While we all know that rather than mitigate a problem at source he/they will put their employees in the cheapest possible PPE (etc) "But what's new? And more to the point what can 'we' do about it? Perhaps it would be more productive to follow that tack." It would undoubtably be more productive to the H&S industry, but would it help the productivity of the client ? ........... that's the "bottom line" isn't it ?