Posted By Kay Sproulle
I am struggling to understand how to apply CDM regs for installation of new or dismantling/removal of old machinery. The regs definitely apply, but who is the designer? Is there one at all? Removal seems the most difficult, as the removal contractors have had no involvement in deciding how/where the machinery was initially installed (or indeed designing the actual machine!), this may have happened prior to existance of CDM, and the programme of removal work may be dictated by the client. The contractor may devise the method but the host site must provide the necessary information (e.g. floor loading capacity, positions of services, weight of machines etc)and therefore is party to specifying how the work must be carried out. My head is spinning - can anyone help? Many thanks.

Posted By Kay Sproulle
Thanks for your input. Having re-read the suggested sections some are easy to apply to machinery removal but they also imply that the client/host site plus designer of the machine and surrounding environs must be involved (which is not always possible e.g. if very old or unoccupied). It also says all designer-parties must communicate well and work as a team. With this in mind, what documentation should be produced? For a new building, there would obviously be design drawings etc. Any ideas/suggestions for the best tangible record of 'designs' for machinery removal- surely the contractor should not bear sole responsibility for said documents or for managing hazards & risks therein if he has not had complete control or been provided with sufficient, correct information?
I think the pre-tender H&S plan lends itself to the above but the problem is that this should be prepared before the contractor is appointed (ACoP paragraph 150, 230) Sorry to go on but I'm intrigued in understanding CDM as best I can!
Thanks again.

Posted By Ron Hunter
I would suggest that,in the context of CDM or any legislation which does not apply retrospectively, you are correct in thinking that there is in fact (as far as enforcing CDM goes) no " Designer" as at the time of design there was no CDM and no Regulation 13. As Client, you will not be appointing a Designer. Similarly, you won't have a H&S File either - all pre-CDM.
In 'deciding how work is to be done' you chosen Principal Contractor may well be undertaking design work, but this dual role is surely a moot point -e.g. there is no requirement to notify on an F10 who the Designer is.

It would be reasonable to research as much as possible about the existing machinery, plant and structures, trying to find records, or anyone who has undertaken similar work on similar machinery.In general terms, dismantling or demolition is usually best undertaken in the reverse order in which it was constructed, always taking into account issues such as pre-stressed members, temporary imbalance or structural weakness,release of contaminants/ pressure, conducting tests, surveys and preparatory work, etc. On this basis you also have a role to play, taking reasonable steps to locate and make avaiable existing information about the machines/plant, co-operating with the Contractor, etc.
In short, there will be many competent contractors out there and your focus should be to take all reasonable steps to ensure the competency of those you engage to do this work for you.

Posted By Ken Taylor
Surely this situation could exist in any work situation whether CDM or not? If there is absolutely no way in which you could have been aware of a hidden hazard and did everything else safely and legally, you must have a good defence against any claim that you either were in breach of statute or were negligent in that respect. This does, however, make it important to be competent and knowledgeable and to make all the necessary enquiries, etc.