Posted By David
I wont mention specifics but the outlining scenario is as follows:

A mother watching her son play football at night. The game is located at the local football club. The game ends and the spectators start to leave. On their way back to the cars in the club car park the lights go off. The car park is now pitch black. The mother trips over and badly hurts her knee. The club first aider treats the mother but no further action is taken. Several days on and the mother is still in pain and struggles to walk.

My question: Is the club liable or is this down to the mother not having a torch with her? What are the clubs legal obligations to spectators?

Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

Posted By gham
Agree with toecap but they should be insured, and it's the owners of the ground unless the maintenance is in any tenancy agreement

at the end of the day she really should have been carrying a torch, cant undertand why anyone would leave home without one.....

Posted By Les Welling
I assume that the car park belongs to the club? Or is it maintained by the local authority?

Posted By David
Is there any legal obligation to actually provide lighting to the car park?

Posted By J Knight
Hi folks,

MetalMan I simply cannot agree. 10 years ago, as I recall, people were suing for injury, and in ten years time they will still be suing, unless employers and landowners get their acts together and stop injuring people. Complaining about lawsuits for actual injuries is like complaining about speed cameras; nobody makes you speed, nobody says that employers should be able to cause injuries. Not the same if people are making it up, I acknowledge that, but if there's a real injury and somebody should have prevented it then there should be consequences for that failure.

If the car park is a workplace or part of one it should be lit (sfarp) because of the Workplace (HS&W) Regs, and it should have a safe surface. If it is not a workplace then there will be Occupier's Liability duties to keep it in a reasonable condition,

John

Posted By gham
What about that one time you just can't pick youself up.

You don't have to fall far to cause some severe damage to knees head wrists (especially wrists)

You must have good sick pay arrangements with your employer if you fail to see th reasoning behind not agreeing that someones negligence is acceptable. You would claim against someone if they smashed your car up in a crash..... i would

Posted By MetalMan
See what interesting responses you get for playing devils advocate? Lets look at the facts before we all start racing to our text books and start beating the club owner with them.
The club had lights, they just went off too early! The club had a first aider who helped the lady (ooh lets forget that and hang him, he forgot to fill out the accident book!)Seeing as the club is used by her son and probably many others would it not be preferable to write them a letter or visit them to explain the situation and asking them to remedy it immediately, rather than taking legal action that could shut them down and leave everyone without the facility. Unfortunately I live in the real world where many people and things are not perfect, how many of us can say we work in an environment where everything is perfect? not many I'll wager.
Unfortunately it is the trend of rushing in and balsting people with both barrels when they get something wrong that results in a bad image for us all.
There's an awful lot of people on here on some very high horses!
As for the insult Dave, well, no comment, I consider myself a professional, interesting though how you attacked me personally with no reason.

Posted By David
I have re-read my post again and do not see any insults. Once again I believe that your perception is interpreting everything as negative and as stated this is an issue that only you can address. No insult was intended and I do apologise if you feel offended.

However, your strong reaction has made me realise that there are always different ways of looking at cases such as this and your points are noted. May I just suggest that in future you consider that the post you have just read has not been written out of greed or spite and reply as such...because maybe that could be read as offensive too.

Anyway...back to the original question....

Posted By gham
Intersting question on another thread

"Should I join IOSH?"

why bother if you get assiciated with this sort of nit picking rubbish


oh the free magazine that why

Posted By MetalMan
Rules, Rules, Rules. Health and Safety is so much more than reading a regulation and then telling someone they must comply, or else. Sure health and safety rules and regs are a big part of it I know (I did the exams and have the badge to prove it), winning people over with the hearts and minds approach is an integral part of it as well, just look at the trouble the HSE are going to at the moment to advocate "Sensible health and safety", just look at the headline in the Express today "Health and Safety Fascists!" Is that what we want?
This football club may well be liable, but did they puposely go out to injure someone by being negligent, I don't think so.
Thanks for the contributions everyone, I enjoy a heated debate at times, no offence meant or taken.

Posted By MetalMan
John,

Good advice! Unfortunately we can't stop the Health and Safety bashers reading them.

Posted By Darren J Fraser
Regardless of liability, ask the club if the lights can be left on for an extra 10 mins after an evening game, due to a lady falling over and injuring herself due to the lights going out before she reached her vehicle, also thank the 1st aider for their assistance.

Problem solved to everyones satisfaction.

If the situation happens again, then look at who is liable and make the appropriate decision.

Or have I missed the entire point of the thread.

Posted By Is Kismet
Descarte - the mugger would be responsible, I don't understand your point.

Posted By Dave Wilson
1. Not at work H&S Law does not apply - common law duties apply
2. No requirement for the club to provide First Aid and Accident book at all / riddor most definately does not apply.
3. if it reasonable to expect some one to fall and injure themselves then 'Occupiers liability' or Defective premises may apply.

Posted By Red Ones
At risk of sounding like a stereotyped Liverpudlian - calm down, calm down.

Who is the controller of the Car Park? (the dutyholder) Is it the club?
Do they have a duty of care to the spectators? (Probably yes)
Was there as loss or injury? (Yes)

Changes are then that the club is at fault. HOWEVER, have they acted with due diligence? Have they assessed the risks? Have they looked at the timing of the lights? Have they clearly marked the car park? etc. etc.

I can fully understand people who suffer injuries that affect their lives for some period of time wanting to see compensation for costs incurred and some token gesture of goodwill (this is very different from nailing backsides to walls) I can also understand those with lesser injuries (who may suffer a little pain or discomfort) making enough fuss to draw attention to the problem and a bit of angling for a free ticket for a match of their choice etc (afterall it costs the club nothing and loks good from a PR point of view)

Posted By Tony Brunskill
I think the key to this is to establish whether the club is an employer. If they are not an employer i.e. no employees the HSWA 74 does not apply and you would need to examine liability under the OLA.
If they are an employer then the HSWA would apply under section 3. However, this is more likely to be viewed as a civil issue and I cannot see the enforcing authority taking much action beyond an Improvement Notice.
That said such action would strengthen a civil action in that an improvement notice can only be served where there hase been a breach of statutory duty. Your solicitor is likely to use this to enable a double barrelled action and reverse the burden in the civil courts.
That said the only loosers if the accident was not significant are the club and the kids that use it.