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#1 Posted : 10 September 2006 16:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Darren Frost The flat roof over our two of our bedrooms sprung a leak recently and caused water damage to the bedroom ceilings underneath. The roof was repaired straight away and we were told by our insurance company that we could claim for reparing the interior damage etc. Insurance company instructed their contractor (a big name in the construction business) to manage the claim and they in turn appointed a company to inspect the artex on the celings for asbestos content. The reults came back positive and we have been told that the contractor has to remove all ceiling boards (even tho' in my opinion and the surveyor that first inspected it, could be repaired). This for us is a HUGE upheaval as we have all fitted wardrobes etc not to mention the 10 years of accumalated contents in the loft that would all have to be removed for the celings to be replaced completely. My questions are:- * Now the ceilings have been inspected and analysed and (I am told) the HSE been notified of the works do we have to continue with all this work? * Can we appoint our own builder to install new celing boards over the top and replaster leaving the old celing underneath. * Or get the builder to locally repair the celings and make good. I understand that the laws are changing very soon, how does this affect us? Thanks. I look forward to your valued advice.
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#2 Posted : 10 September 2006 17:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ian P The asbestos regulations I know of are workplace, which I suppose it is for the repairers but if your insurers are involved they will be the ones calling the shots. I do doubt very much if asbestos boards can be repaired if they are broken, removal or encapsulation are the only things I have come across in my admittedly limited experience of the stuff
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#3 Posted : 10 September 2006 21:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By frostythesnowman I didnt say the boards I said the artex coating.
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#4 Posted : 10 September 2006 21:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By RP I am sure that I read somewhere that the artex coatings are not considered as containing significant amounts of asbestos. Worth giving HSE a ring, perhaps it was in construction news
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#5 Posted : 11 September 2006 09:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Steve Conway I experienced this a few months ago with a leak from my bathroom which damaged my kitchen ceiling. Before I found out the artex contained asbestos I had stripped the panels back to the nearest undamaged one. Initially the insurer said get a couple of quotes and in the process one of the quoters mentioned the possibility of asbestos so I got back in touch with the insurer who appointed their own contractor - it was then I subsequently found out the artex contained asbestos. When loss adjuster came around I discussed the various options - making good the panels, dropping the whole ceiling and replacing it or covering over the old ceiling. I opted for the first. I suggest you get in touch with the insurance company to discuss other options in particular recovering over the top of the damaged ceiling. If this can be done I'm sure your insurer would much prefer this. I don't believe you are obligated to have the ceiling removed. Steve
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#6 Posted : 11 September 2006 09:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By gham Of course they would say you need to change the lot, it's an insurance job that how it works £££££££
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#7 Posted : 11 September 2006 09:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson Darren, I work for a large Asbvestos Removal Contractor and we have national contracts with a couple of large insurance companies to do all their asbestos work. Firstly, until the regulations change in Nov, legally, a licensed contractor must do the work, after the new regs any contractor can do it, however it still has to be carried out under controlled conditions. If you get a licensed contarctor in then the work they have to do to remove / repair would be the same and it would be advisable to get the whole lot removed as in essence the problem has then gone! As the insurance company is picking up the tab, this would be at their expense, I know that this does not help you in the upheaval which you & family will incur and I would personnly speak to the insurers / contractor in exavctly what is required and get them to do all the work. email me if you have a specific advice which you require or just want to set your mind at ease.
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#8 Posted : 12 September 2006 09:23:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stephen R Robinson Darren, I'm an Asbestos Consultant and we have several Insurance companies for clients and come across this work all the time. There are a few points I can give you: 1. I can reassure you that the Asbestos risk to you and your family is minimal. 2. following water damage our clients always remove the ceiling is a whole. The reason for this is that if you only remove the damaged section, the ceiling looks repaired or patchy. For the sake of the job it is better to remove the whole ceiling and get a new one in. (From your description, it sounds like the artex is to plasterboard panels, this makes for very easy removal.) 3. do not worry about your possessions, the Insurance Company will ensure they are looked after. You dhould not be doing any lifting or moving yourself. The loft will be sheeted out above the ceiling to be removed only, so no need to empty the loft, the contractors doing the work will simply move stuff around. Bedroom furniture will be removed by the contractors prior to work starting or put into storage for the day by the Insurance Company if there is not enough room to move the furniture into. Your wardrobe will be protected using cordex or hardboard. If you want though, take pictures of everything before work starts as evidence of damage if anything occurs. 4. Although the notification period is 2 weeks, the ceiling removal will take one day only with the new ceiling going in the following day. 5. You can get your own builder to overboard the Artex if you wish, this is cheaper and can be discussed with the insurance company. 6. You can get your own builder to repair the damage if he is willing, but you should make him aware of the Asbestos. 7. Artex may be removed from the licensing regs in the future, but that is still a way off as things stand at the moment. As a tennant you would not notice any difference to be honest. Hope this helps.
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#9 Posted : 12 September 2006 10:10:00(UTC)
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Posted By jackw. Hi, we face problems with artex on a daily basis. We have technicians who fit aids equipment etc in client’s homes. Thus they need to drill into artex coated walls or in some cases into walls that have been coated with plaster on top of artex. Around 20% of artex does contain small amounts of asbestos. We called on the advice of chemists. They indicated that they have never found any significant traces of asbestos in the atmosphere around works with the contaminated artex. The problem is that artex is on the HSE list as containing asbestos and must be subject to test and may require removal under licence. Costly and in this case very disruptive. We have got round the problem by ensuring no one works with/drills into artex for more than 1 hour over 24 (in essence they only take a few mins to drill the holes for supporting fixings for the equipment). Thus we can do the work under non licensed conditions. Precautions are a vacuum fitted to drill heads and PPE for staff. The ppe is a secondary safety device thus we do not need to get involved in face fit testing. Not sure this helps unless the work can be completed in less than an hour, unlikely I know And, of course the HSE did prosecute a LA and contractor for removing large amounts of artex unlicensed. Although I understand they are going to remove artex from the list. Cheers.
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#10 Posted : 12 September 2006 10:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By MarkJAWatkins Hello, I sometimes laugh at the previous comments on threads such as this. Everybody has the same ideas in general but they are worded so differently you think they are conflicting!! Now it is my turn. As previous statements say; Work with textured coating DOES need to be carried out by a licensed contractor. The problem that you have with encaspsulating the ceiling with a board of whatever to form a new ceiling is that you will have to fix batons to the existing ceiling to fix the boards to. This must be carried out by a licensed contractor - bearing in mind that until the regs change we still need to adhere to them. Hope you get on alright, Mark
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#11 Posted : 12 September 2006 11:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson Good point however you will still have to comply with the new regs in the safe removal you just wont need a licensed contractor do do this, in general, the draft ACoP does suggest that on certain occasions a licensed contractor will still need to be used if the work is 'not of sporadic and low intensity!' Para 168 to 177 expalins all http://www.hse.gov.uk/ab...ngs/2006/250706/c56b.pdf
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#12 Posted : 12 September 2006 19:54:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stuart Nagle Darren The ceiling can be patch repaired for much less cost if you can get your insurers to agree... Local repairs to the damaged section with plasterboard to match existing and tape all joints. this will only ,involve minor trimming of the existing ceiling structure and does not require a licenced asbestos removal contractor, only sensible safety precautions by a contractor. Get plasterer to re-plaster the whole ceiling - over the exiting artex, thus encapsulating it, apply new textured surface if desired, decorate when dry. This is a legitimate and cost effective repair method often employed to repair damaged ceilings and do away with unsightly/ugly or just plain disliked textured ceilings in many buldings, particularly after a leaking roof has caused damage. I'm sure your insurance company's surveyor would be pleased to discuss this method, thus ensuring you get what you want as the client, and the insurance company saves costs on the reinstatement of the ceiling. Regards... Stuart
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#13 Posted : 15 September 2006 18:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Adam Clutterbuck Hi, I have just seen your posting about the textured ceiling and the approach proposed. The good news is that it may well be possible to avoid the removal of the ceiling without breaching the HSE regulations. We are dealing with this aspect on a regular basis for many insurers, loss adjusters and surveyors, and more often than not we can avoid the disruption, fear, delay, and unneccesary costs of full asbestos removal measures where textured ceilings are concerned. I would prefer not to post advice on this forum yet as there are more questions to ask before I can give you a full response. I will need to know the extent of the damage to the textured coating, whether there is a coving or cornice, is it now dry, and one or two other practical aspects. If you would care to contact me at ac@pcse.co.uk I will gladly respond with no charge or commercial interest. Once we have clarified these items I will have no objection to posting a solution to the issue raised for the benefit of others on this forum.
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