Posted By Catman
Hi Energy Saver

Its down to the contract. As the houses are domestic premises (unless you are talking about common areas) the council does not have a duty under the CAWR....however they do have relevant duties under HASWA and Mgmnt Regs.

I had the same discussion with a housing association Clerk of works at the pre contract stage, they were pushing to survey one 'sample flat' and pass that to us as evidence for the rest of the flats, which as you will know, means missed decorative coatings at least.

I would push for the client to arrange sampling in front of any invasive work as a minimum, also the sample flat idea is useful for identifying any standard items such as balcony panels etc. if you are working on the area under long term maint contracts.

Asbestos Awareness Training for your own employees is also important.

Cheers
TW

Posted By Ron Hunter
Council DOES have a duty under CAWR 2002: "Prevention or reduction of exposure to asbestos: Regulation 10. - (1) Every employer shall (a) prevent the exposure of his employees to asbestos so far as is reasonably practicable."

The Council is emploting you as a contractor, therefore duty extends.
The domestic/non-domestic premises issue relates only to Reg4 "Duty to Manage"

Posted By Advanced Safety
Would like to see the justification of why a contractor is being deemed as employee in this instance and the council as employer. Do they not have seperate sections in HASAWA? This situation would make many clients employees!

I have been involved in some major regeneration projects on housing estates and have never come across a contractor being named as an employee of the client. Would be interested in others thoughts on this.

Posted By Ron Hunter
f.a.o. Advanced Safety: It wasn't my intention to get hung up on the employer/employee terminology; more to stress that there is a duty placed on the LA in the circumstances described. Under CDM for example, he has to provide information he has or could readily ascertain about known risks - in this instance,we're talking about ACMs.
Yes, the arrangements for managing these risks could in theory be devolved to the contractor, but this would be more than a 'contractual' matter. The LA would have to take reasonable steps to ensure the contractor was competent to undertake this work (or had taken similar steps with any sub-contractor involved), and would have to ensure that the initial construction phase plan was adequately developed to manage this risk.
Yes, the work could in theory be left to the contractor, but then how does the client (the LA)have any idea of the indicative or estimated costs and control the project budget? How does the contractor competitively price the job on the basis that ACMs may (or may not) be encountered as the job progresses? Who bears the costs of the downtime for a mobilised workforce during any 14 day notification period where a requirement for licensed work is belatedly discovered? Far better I suggest for the client (the LA)to take responsibility for this up front and therefore have a much more effectively managed project.

Posted By Catman
Hi Ron

That is exactly my point. The clients duties under HASWA and Mgmt Regs are not going to go away, and I agree with what you have said re responsibility.

However.

From experience in this exact situation, the client, in most cases will not send a surveyor to survey all his tenanted properties. He will put a clause in the contract teling the contractor to deal with it.

I put your arguments to clients like this and they say 'fine, we will find another contractor'.

I have withdrawn our team from contracts because my guys would be at risk and our end of the contract was not priced for surveying (and the most recent was in a non domestic!!)

I know if things go wrong the client would be bang to rights but that seems to be a risk some are willing to take in the name of cost.

Cheers
TW

Posted By Catman
Hi Ron

Yes, that is how it should be.

I am well experienced in this route and its dangers. Less said quickest mended.

Cheers
TW

Posted By Adrian Watson
Dear energy,

The council has a duty to inform you that their properties may contain asbestos and provide you with any information that is available!

It is your duty to ensure that your employees know the risks from asbestos and the preventative and precautionary measures that they must take to safeguard their own and others health. This in practice means that they must be able to identify the materials that they work upon and the measures they must take if they find, disturb or damage asbestos containing materials.

Regards Adrian Watson