Posted By Sheila EJ Keogh
Sharon,

I think it could prove disastrous in an emergency! Imagine a car on fire, for example, in the middle & fast lanes, and nowhere for it to pull over to as the hard shoulder is being used as an extra lane, which of course blocks quick access by fire crew (other emergency services would hopefully use motorbikes and keep their fingers crossed that they can store adequate medical equipment on the bikes). What about lorries etc that may suddenly need to pull over? I really hope they change their minds..

Sheila

Posted By Manny
In Germany the emergency services do not use the hard shouders instead drivere are required to pull over and allow a gap between the two(or three lanes)for the services to use

Posted By John Mackessack
I can help thinking that this move has an air of desperation about it.

The hard shoulder is a particularly dangerous place to be but it is still safer that being stranded in an active lane.

An earlier posting elluded to dual carriageways being fine without a hard shoulder.....well, Britain's motorways are still its safest roads (statistically) for a reason - having a hard shoulder may be a significant part of that reason.

I can see the sense in making use of available tarmac during peak periods, but this is probably just the thin end of the wedge.

I wonder if they have considered the tidle-flow approach previously used at the Blackwall tunnel as it is usually one side of the carriageway that takes the main load at peak periods?

Posted By Simon Harrison
I can vouch for the system as used on the autobahns - it really does work very well but the "locals" tend to be more orientated to obeying the rules of the road.

Not sure of the current stats, but up until recently the autobahns used to be the safest class of roads in Europe - even without a universal speed limit!

Posted By Brian John Abbs
The installation of Automated Traffic Management (ATM) on the M42 has a very strong safety case behind it.

The benefits from ATM along with reduced congestion are an improvement in vehicle accident rates and massive improvement in road worker safety.

The vehicle accident rates drop due a distinct type of driver behaviour under enforcement conditions. Vehicles will drive closer together at lower speeds. As lane changing is discouraged, and most traffic will be travelling at a constant (the posted variable limit) there are less incident of drivers tapping the brakes causing "Ghost jams" or pile ups.
Junction incidents are reduced due to the lower speed of vehicles accessing and egressing the network.
The Controlled motorways section of the M25 (J10-16) is the busiest section of the M25, yet it remains the most reliable in respect of journey times and safety.

The safety of road workers is increased because of the extended period between maintenance, and all the overhead signals reduce the amount of traffic management (cones and signs) that have to be placed.

The MIDAS (Motorway Incident Detection Automatic Signalling) system identifies accidents, congestion etc and sets signals in response to the data in seconds. This does not require human intervention.

Emergency refuge areas have been positioned behind every overhead gantry to provide an extra, off the hard shoulder for broken down vehicles. MIDAS and CCTV monitor these areas.

The Hard shoulder can be closed for use in seconds, and perhaps people are forgetting that by using the overhead signals, any lane can be closed for use by the emergency services.

The National Audit Office has reported that the HA have been too slow in taking up this technology. As the amount of room for roads decreases, we'll have to accept different operational regimes on Motorways so that we get the most out of them.

Now to declare my interest. I worked as RE, Safety Advisor and as Assistant Planning Supervisor on the scheme.

Bash A

Posted By David Bramall
Sharon
The use of the hardshoulder as a running lane is not really a new thing. For years, during roadworks, where temporary traffic management is in place, the hardshoulder is very often used to carry traffic. In my experience it has never caused a major problem.

There is a fair argument that in an emergency, it wil take longer for emergency services to reach the scene, but I dont believe this is the case - certainly most of us allow blue lights to pass without interference.

Also the use of emergency stopping ponts for broken down vehicles, should generally work, we dont usually break down and come to a sudden halt - except in the event of a collision, in which case we are more likely to disrupt one or even all of the running lanes.

I dont think it is a bad step to take. It will certainly have some positive effect on traffic flow during peak periods, and even with the occasional blockage, say on the hard shoulder, the situation will at worst be equal to it is now.

DrB

Posted By Chris Freville
The dangerous thing is, that if you are driving along the hard shoulder and
then you do not want to get off at the next exit, you MUST change lanes into
one of the normal lanes, otherwise you will be forced off at next junction.

This could lead to many accidents as drivers suddenly realising they have to
change lanes at the last second.

Posted By Simon Harrison
I'm sorry to say I would strongly contest the remarks made about the reliability etc of the systems used to monitor/control the M25.

I use the M23 to M4 section of the M25 on a regular basis and my perception is completely at odds with those stated; the (un)reliability of the overhead signs e.g. different limits posted for different lanes at the same time, some limits/lanes without the "red circle" around the limit, frequent changes in limits up and down for no apparent reason etc etc, means I, like I would guess most drivers, put little credence on the validity of the indications and only obey the limits to prevent getting nicked by the Scameras. On the other hand the systems in Germany seem to work properly at all times and drivers seem more willing to obey the limits because they are set at sensible levels and sensibly enforced.

Rant over, high horse back to the stable!

Posted By jackw.
Hi, anyone having driven in the Irish republic will know that it is expected that you move into the hard shoulder to allow cars to pass including on coming traffic in dual carriageways and other minor roads. A bit scary but you kinda get used to it well almost. . still scary when i return there... no idea what the stats are in terms of accidents during this type of manoeuvre. I suppose anything that decreases traffic jams and the resultant frustration, impatience; lane hoping etc currently evident on our roads must be a positive. But like all things requires discipline from the driver. My contention there are no bad/dangerous roads. just idiot drivers

Cheers.

Posted By Philby'
Andrew,

a highways officer informed me that the hard shoulder has a higher friction co-efficient, however, the surface is thinner and therefore not suitable for continuous use, and one would suspect dodgy under heavy breaking.

As for the statistics regarding safety/use etc of roads...I used to live, and still have to navigate, the first 'multiple occupancy lane', which rarely gets policed.

The LA declared that the experiment was a success quoting 'this that and the other statistics' and denied complaints that all the back roads had turned into ratruns....strange that I used to have to queue out of my street and now use the ratruns myself (responsibly, I might add!)

Philby'

Posted By Tabs
Chris, I suspect (nay, expect) that the issue of junctions would be resolved by simply remarking the carriageways. If I am in lane 3 and want to exit, I already cross two lanes, crossing a new inside lane would be no more difficult.

A hard shoulder is a very good idea, and I would like to retain it. If there are a few serious 'pinch places' which need to use that lane, to the benefit of several miles of otherwise queueing traffic, then let's try it.

I can only use my perception of things because I have no data - but it seems that many shunts happen due to sudden traffic build-ups. That in turn leads to more serious consequences as other cars are then caught out.

Anything that keeps traffic moving is a benefit to all of us.

Posted By Brian John Abbs
As I've been away I have a few answers to different queries and statements.

The issue of the quality of hard shoulder construction was discussed at great length during the design phase.
Desk survey, and site investigation (untold core samples) proved that all lanes of the motorway had been constructed to the same standard. Where substandard construction or surface was discovered during the construction phase, it was rectified. If I remember rightly we Birse did quite a bit of worked making good the highway between junctions 3 and 4.

I think it should be reiterated that in an emergency the hard shoulder would revert to being the hard shoulder eg. a clear lane for the emergency services. ATM also gives the flexibility to close a different lane for use by emergency services. Those overhead signals aren't there just to tell you what the current speed limit is.

There is a very definite pinch point on the M42, visitors to the NEC can be directed to use the H/S or lane one, freeing up space for other road users to use lanes 2 and 3. Because of te regularity of events at the NEC it gives a lot of reliable data about how well the system works or needs improving.

In response to Tabs. You are quite right, ghost jams, and heavy traffic conditions do cause or contribute to a lot of accidents. The ATM and controlled motorways systems seek to keep traffic moving at a constant speed during high traffic periods. A steady 50mph is more efficient than doing 70mph then braking to 15mph, back up to 50mph back down again. Lie we've all experienced. It also reduces the risk of not outbreaking the car in front.

Previous comments about reliability refer to journey time reliability. If it takes you 10no mins to get from J11-12 one day, it should take the same time everyday. I was not referring to the equipment on the M25. Which is a different matter entirely.

I think that people find the idea abhorrent because the system is so new and radical. Technologies used during the trial are already being taken up on other roads, if not in the ATM format.

If anyone has any queries about controlled motorways or ATM drop me an email, It's something that I'm still enthused about even 2no years after working on the project.

Have good weekend all.