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#1 Posted : 15 September 2006 14:30:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mike Grey
Hi all

Due to a recent case within the NHS i need to go out and assess ponds within our site. I have plenty of ideas of what i am looking for but has anyone done any work like this before. I need to get the balance right, protecting vulnerable people and allowing people to enjoy the ponds and to benefit from their presence.

Here,s hoping

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#2 Posted : 15 September 2006 14:40:00(UTC)
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Posted By peter gotch
Hi Mike

The Visitor Safety in the Countryside Group [www.vscg.co.uk] advocate that risk controls be based on an assessment of the risks. Their website includes a risk control matrix, and examples of where additional controls may or may not be appropriate.

In their publication, “Safety at Inland Water Sites” RoSPA also recommend a risk based approach be taken to consideration of what should or should not be done where there is risk of e.g. drowning.

RoSPA comment on variables including the volume and nature of those at risk, together with features of the watercourse [e.g. depth, flow and nature of any drop into water].

This leads to recommendations as to possible precautions including in some cases fencing and/or signage.

In his opinion in the case of Lynne Patricia Graham v East of Scotland Water Authority [www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/ems2801.html], Lord Emslie commented

“[6] In developing her submission that the action was irrelevant and should be dismissed, counsel for the defenders advanced two principal arguments. In the first place she maintained, by reference to a number of well-known authorities, that occupiers of land owed no duty to erect fences for the protection of visitors against permanent and obvious features of the environment. This rule applied to natural features such as cliffs, rivers and lochs, but it also applied to man-made or artificial features like railway embankments, ornamental ponds and canals. The rationale here was that individuals could be expected to look after their own safety in relation to permanent and familiar features of the landscape, and it was only where dangers were unusual, unfamiliar or concealed that different considerations applied.

[7] In Hastie v Magistrates of Edinburgh 1907 S.C. 1102, the Inner House affirmed this rule, and dismissed as irrelevant the pursuer's claim for damages in respect of the drowning of his child in an artificial pond in a city park. Stevenson v Glasgow Corporation 1908 S.C. 1034 was a similar case where the defenders were held to be under no duty to fence the River Kelvin into which the pursuer's young child had fallen and been drowned. Thereafter, the same approach was strongly endorsed by the House of Lords in Taylor v Glasgow Corporation 1922 S.C. (H.L.) 1, and by the Inner House in Dumbreck v Robert Addie & Sons (Collieries) Ltd 1928 S.C. 547. More recently, in Duff v East Dunbartonshire Council and Others 1999 G.W.D. 22-1077, Lady Cosgrove again applied the established general rule, holding that a pursuer who fell down a steep embankment on to a rocky river-bank adjacent to a car park had no relevant claim. That decision was later followed by the Sheriff Principal of Grampian Highland and Islands in Strachan v Highland Council 1999 G.W.D. 38-1863, where the pursuer fell over a cliff after passing through a gap in a fence.

[8] What was important about these decisions, in counsel's submission, was that they limited an occupier's duty of care to dangers which were unfamiliar, unseen or unknown, and at the same time positively affirmed that the imposition of a duty to fence off permanent, obvious and familiar features of the environment, whatever degree of danger they might present, could not be contemplated. In some of the cases, moreover, the Court's observations concerned locations where the presence of children was foreseeable, and could therefore be said to apply with even greater force in relation to adults.”

The House of Lords case of Tomlinson v Congleton Borough Council reaffirmed such principles.

However, in the Tomlinson case, Lord Hutton added that

“ there might be exceptional cases where the principle stated in Stevenson and Taylor should not apply and where a claimant might be able to establish that the risk arising from some natural feature on the land was such that the occupier might reasonably be expected to offer him some protection against it, for example, where there was a very narrow and slippery path with a camber beside the edge of a cliff from which a number of persons had fallen. “

Good luck.

Regards, Peter

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#3 Posted : 15 September 2006 14:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By sagalout
Mike, perhaps Friday is not the best day to post this if it is a serious request.
Of course if you are just a frog looking for a princess??
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#4 Posted : 15 September 2006 15:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ali
If the depth is more than 15cm, then consider risk of drowning to small children in which case signage alone will not work ! Even though one would expect parent supervision you would be well advised to consider fencing as a min. control as well as signage (aimed at adults). Also, look at signage in different languages if appropriate ? Nothing complicated - use the art of plain English !
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#5 Posted : 15 September 2006 16:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bob Youel
Planned planting is very important with very dense barbs no maintenance on the inside and very dence non-bard on the outside

the idea being that the outside protects and people have to actively get through dence undergrowth which gets more uncomfortable as you progress to get to the danger area

Proper planting allows all the good aspects and lowers risk

Note the comments are basic as a lot of work is required before planting
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#6 Posted : 15 September 2006 22:54:00(UTC)
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Posted By Tony Brunskill
Keep this in proportion. The cases stated clearly identify the fact there is no requirement to fence such ponds unless there is an obvious risk and evidence that injuries have occurred (Consider the Diana Memorial). If the answer to that question is no then consider hidden perils that you could reasonably foresee. Examples might include broken bank sticks used by anglers below the waterline or shopping trolleys dumped by vandals. PLEASE DO NOT start fencing in every ornanmental pond. Or for that matter screening with planting. If you cannot see it you might as well fill it in and eliminate the risk anyway. If we are to take safety in this direction god help those landowners in the Lake District, imagine the fence around Windemere or Ullswater. I would sue them for loss of amenity.
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#7 Posted : 16 September 2006 00:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ken Taylor
You could also try talking to RoSPA's Water Safety Adviser.

When I was with local authorities, I took the view that, where there was a gradual 'beach' type approach to ponds and lakes in publically accessible places, there was usually no need to fence but that, if you could suddenly and unexpectedly fall into a depth of water, some form of barrier would be advisable. When it came to care type settings (including schools) there may well be a need for further measures - depending upon the nature of persons in care or education. One example is a pond in a school where the weed growth in the water was allowed to develop to such an extent that a young child mistook the pond for an area of plant growth and unsuccessfully tried to walk on the water.
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#8 Posted : 16 September 2006 09:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Saracen11
Hi Mike, this is a link to the document produced by ROSPA regarding water safety.

http://www.rospa.co.uk/w...fety/info/pondsafety.pdf

Regards
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#9 Posted : 19 September 2006 08:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mike Grey
Thank you all for your advice, all welcome and relevant. Thank you Peter for the legal advice, our issue is slightly different due to the recent prosecution and the presence of "vulnerable" people in our care. Once again "reasonableness" rears its head, what are we reasonably expected to do.

Start assessing today, thanks again to all

Mike
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