Posted By Raymond Rapp Carl Even if you could work the abnormal hours you have suggested there is the problem of 12 hours rest between shifts. I am not convinced you can overcome that problem. Nice try though. Ray

Posted By John Caboche Carl, under the ROGS regs you are now required to manage fatigue rather than working time. "replace the Safety Critical Work Regulations 1994 (SCWR): and implement new requirements on the management of fatigue of safety critical workers (arising from recommendations from Lord Cullen’s inquiry into the collision at Ladbroke Grove)." Source: http://www.rail-reg.gov....rver/show/ConWebDoc.7964 You can download the regulations from: http://www.rail-reg.gov....rver/show/ConWebDoc.7964 And you need to look at section 25. It may be permissable to include travelling time outside of shifts, but only an hour for example - this is our policy, we also have to monitor travelling distance of the work gangs, shift times - actual start and finish times rather than duration. Management of fatigue is a lot more tricky than just managing working hours, you have to take into account many more things, and also to an extent factors that may affect your employees outside of work. In a lot of ways it is best to err on the side of caution - we place dedicated drivers in our work gangs who sleep for the shift and then drive the guys home fior example after a long night shift. In answer to your original question the instances you cite of driving and sourcing accomodation would almost certainly be counted as "working time" for the purposes of the regs. Feel free to e mail me if you require further info. John

Posted By Mick Day Carl, The whole issue of the working hours within the rail industry is somewhat "GREY". The key issue to address first is are you and your staff classed as Safety Critical. There is guidance on the the classification of what roles are deemed Safety Critical. Railway Group Standard - GO / RT 3260 Being link up accredited you should have reference to these standards. If not type in RSSB and it will take you to the website. The best advice I could give you is treat all staff as Safety Critical for the purpose of working hours. If something does happen upon the Railway Infrastructure that affects the safe passage of trains of could potentially affect the safe passage of trains you would need to demonstrate a satisfactory level of staff management. You will find throughout the industry that this issue is a major bone of contention that has never been satisfactorily answered. Dont also lose sight of the basic issue of the HASAWA and Management Regs. Railway Group Standard - GH / RT 4004 Changes in Working Hours - Safety Critical Work - Dated 1996 refers . Railway Group Standard - GO / RT 3260 - Competence Management for Safety Critical Work - Dated 1998 sets out clarification as to what functions are deemed as Safety Critical. Good Luck in your quest. Regards Mick

Posted By Ian G Hutchings Bob I think you are being a bit harsh as people are trying to offer advice and have already mentioned the RSSB. The people in question are not train operators and may need some more specific guidance as to where they fit in with the safety critical work requirements. The RSSB is the right direction to look but people must also remember that complying with a railway industry standard does not absolve you from further risk assessment, other legal requirements and duty of care as a company. I think it is often better to think through your own scenario and not just default to generic compliance with railway group standards on paper (e.g. LinkUp) without ensuring that proper controls are applied in the reality of the work concerned. Regards Ian

Posted By Bob Shillabeer Sorry got me on the wrong foot; back trip into work today. I attended a briefing some months ago on the ROGS Regulations by the HMRI (Fat load of use that was) The ROGS are the new version inter alia of the Railways (Safety Critical Work) Regulations and very little has changed. The need to manage working hours comes from Sir Anthony Hidden's recomendation 18 from the Clapham rail accident and has been considered by RSSB for many years now and they are very expert in them. If you need any help in interpreting them contact RSSB the Head of Train Operation and Management delivery unit is a very approachable person and WILL give help

Posted By Bob Shillabeer The Railway (Safety Critical Work) Regulations stated that people should not undertake safety critical work whilst fatigued; this is repeated in the ROGs Regulations. It is not the time spent doing safety critical work that counts its the state of fatigue the individual displays. E.G. if someone drives 200 miles to bet to a worksite then does a period of safety critical work its the fitness of the individual that has a direct bearing on that person ability to undertake the task correctly and without risk. So in short it is wrong to consider the travelling time outside the work time before undertaking safety critical work. All I am saying is get the advise of the experts in this field; they have lots of experience and knowledge about monotoring safey related/critical working not just in train operators but accross the whole range of activities undertaken in the rail industry. Horses and water seem to come to mind.