Posted By MSE Could anybody please recommend an appropriate level of first aid training for Electrical Inspectors? A Risk Assessment I recently completed revealed the need for training of some kind for our Inspectors (of which I am one). We are a small company and have never had RAs completed before. Since completing the NEBOSH Certificate, it has now become part of my role to begin the process of compiling them. Our Inspectors test and inspect wiring installations and occasionally have to work on live electricity - this is unavoidable. It therefore follows that there is a risk of shock and electrocution. We always work in pairs; an engineer and a technician assistant, and most often in out-of-hours situations. In my view, both parties should be trained to respond to the low-probability but high severity risk of electrical injury (we currently are not). Where I am struggling is in knowing what level of training would be appropriate. My initial thoughts after looking into it would be that the 4-day HSE First Aid at Work certificate is pitched about right? I would appreciate hearing the views of others, particularly anybody who has direct experience of similar situations. Is this about right? Or perhaps more/less would be appropriate? Many thanks in advance for your kind opinions. Mark

Posted By MSE Pretty please. (I'd be interested to see if it dovetails with my own RA).

Posted By Merv Newman MSE, Remebering that I am NOT a qualified electrician and that what follows comes from memory. I do have an electrician's hand book somewhere but I would have to do some seraching. I think it might be in the "miscellaneous" file so no hope of finding it before Xmas. Here we go then :(I'm only talking "hot" work here and 240/380) 1. "Hot" work requires management authorisation on EACH occasion. There is no such thing as a permanent authorisation to work on live circuits. 2. Area will be barred off with at least 1 meter protected clearance and appropriate signing. 3. Insulating rubber mats will cover all necessary floor area and nearby metal objects (pipework etc.) 4. Both electricians will wear insulating footwear and gloves. 5. No jewelry or other metal objects should be able to come close to live circuitry. 6. Tools and instruments must be tested and certified as safe for the work. And inpsected visually immediately before work starts. 7. Only one of the two electricians is allowed within the barred off area at a time. The other is on guard. That's about it. I'm sure some of our colleagues will tell us otherwise. Hope they do if they are better qualified than me. True story : The best, most experienced electrican in our company, he was responsible for training apprentice electricians, died while simply bolting a new cabinet to the existing row. Second true story : One of our electricians was John Hurkette, thus called "Hurkette the circuit" When his son joined us he was immediately named "shorts" Hope the above helps Merv

Posted By Jim Walker Hi MSE, Assume you have the guidance to the Electricity at Work regs? I find the critieria of "need" to live work is often confused with the "convenience" to live work. Your RA needs to establish that your need complies with regs definition. If you have not done this then the RA is no use anyway.

Posted By Merv Newman Mike, I'm more used to factory situations than "out in the field" but the "convenience" factor can be deadly. for me, in a factory if a maintenance person worries too much about maintaining production then there will be a temptation to work "live". I therefore prefer a rule which says they must consult the site manager before doing so. And a site manager that knows they are putting someone's life on the line. Now, you tell me how, in your situation, you are going to handle this point. I'm waaaaaaiting. (Merv in pedagogique mode, also know as his peripatetic style 'cos he walks about a lot) The engineering plant I am in this week has no conception of "lock out" I talked to the H&S person this evening about it and immediately saw the blank look coming into her eyes. She has promised to search the database to see if there is a procedure. Aaaaaaaaargh Merv

Posted By MSE Thankyou - but would it be appropriate to what our needs are? I am still wondering whether the right route might be the 4-day job? I think it is about right - but would appreciate the opinions of those who think it is not?

Posted By MSE Jim, Ken - thankyou the documents you refer to are all referenced in the Risk Assessment and these were used to support the need for first aid training of some kind. As we are a small company, we do not have the resources to run a bespoke training course of the type suggested by George (But thankyou for the info. George). My problem is in identifying and sourcing an appropriate level of training and it is this which is vexing me! However, I am also glad that this thread has also wandered a little into the more general Risk Assessment area and read with interest the comments of those who have contributed. Merv, I see how your suggestion of authorisation would work in a fixed location such as a factory and agree that it could confer certain benefits. But I'm fairly certain that the role undertaken by your notional site manager is the same as that undertaken by our lead Test Engineer on site who decides whether or not to test on live? Whilst I do accept Tony's point about convenience vs. need (it is always thus), any formal documentation of authorisation would be of the form "Do I need to do this? Answer - Yes. OK I authorise myself to do it". Whilst this might form part of a paper trail should anything go wrong, it would not (as far as I can see) add anything to safety. Having typed this, I suppose it could affect the behaviour of somebody completing such a record but this benefit is likely to be outweighed by the onerous nature of such a task and ultimately would be deprecated for this reason? I'd still be very interested to hear your views. Thankyou, Mark

Posted By Merv Newman Go back to Tony Brunskill's reply above. Unless cutting the power will endanger another person's life then "hot" work is illegal. Who makes the decision ? Not the man on the spot. And, Mike, if you are talking first aid then you have already accepted that they will be doing hot work. Or will be making similar mistakes. Then again, you may just have changed the rules by mentioning "testing" This is permitted with correct training/precautions/equipment. But, before you put a screwdriver in, the circuit must be confirmed to be dead. unless you have it in writing from someone senior that, this time, it will be ok and you won't die. And I thought every electrician's training covered all of the points mentioned in other replies above. But what do I know ? Merv

Posted By MSE Andrew - thankyou - I will email you directly. Merv - thankyou for your reply. Electricians in general do not have specific first-aid training, but should as you say be made fully conversant about the hazards of their job. With regards to our specialism, no, we do not stick "screwdrivers" into live circuits. We stick specially-made screwdrivers that are tested to 10,000 volts of potential-difference tested safety into live circuits! No amount of letters from the senior guy will add anything to safety(unless I'm missing something), when we rely on the competence of the engineer in question to do the job. Electrical inspectors can do a lot of things, but they can't test and inspect an installation without, at some point, measuring how an installation's wiring copes under load, or measuring the fault paths to earth. Therefore, 'hot-work' isn't a mistake, but a requirement. As a result, based on what he sees, the decision on whether or not to work-on-live clearly lies with the inspector. A badly laid out distribution box, for example, will tend to influence the decision not to test. I value your input and would like to understand where I might have missed something? Regards, Mark.

Posted By Tony Brunskill I see your practical difficulties and perhaps this is a step toward the ideal. In bomb disposal the IED team work in pairs. On assessment of the threat (hazards and risk) both must concur on a way forward before one or the other puts their life on the line. As your guys work in teams then maybe this is an option. Live working should not be the default. In all cases where it is appropriate to do so the team should work "dead". Where there is a perceived need for live working then the engineer and assistant would sign off. You have to be aware the when you are going to work live the pocedure has to be in writing before you proceed (I think, but I need to check the Regs and guidance). An employer can delegate responsibility for the control measures necessary to a competent person. I would take a look at http://www.hse.gov.uk/LAU/lacs/19-3.htm to see the HSE enforcement view. If you are going to rely on the second person it is the employers duty to make sure they are actuually competent to fulfil the role.

Posted By Merv Newman On reflection, and taking into account your "in the field" situation, I can go with Tony Brunskill's "bomb disposal" team practice (though for that particular hobby I would expect there to be a more senior, but perhaps less skilled, officer lurking somewhere around (behind the tea wagon ?)) That also goes back to my original procedure that requires them to work in pairs, discussing the approach first, then one goes into the "danger area" while the other is "on watch". And, right on, hot work should never be the default option. I knew personally a skilled electrician who died because of a silly mistake. And did I ever tell you of the time I got a nasty shock ? We moved into a new house and needed to paper the bedroom, including getting the paper behind the plug socket. I pulled the fuse labelled "upstairs sockets". Unscrewed the socket, papered and was just screwing it back together when my wife said "Are you sure that is safe ?" "Yes" says I "look" says I laying my screwdriver across the wires. Lock Tag And Try, Merv. Lock Tag and TRY Merv (newly promoted H&S manager at the time) Mike, I know we have gone a bit off the "first aid" thread here but I at least have profited from the discussion. Thanks Have you seen the photo of a Bomb Disposal expert about to burst a paper bag ? Available on e-mail request.