Posted By JasonGould Usually one for the legal experts but I am almost sure he is quite well protected under employment law if he was dismissed for this reason but we all know that is usually not the reason the company would dismiss someone as they realise things later and then react. Not that I am cynical though. I would however, be asking formally and in writing, why I was asked to clock out after refusal to do an unsafe act. Now we could all go on about constructive dismissal but I think it is a bit more complicated than we/I presume. I think manager may have a good think about this and slightly backtrack probably stating your friend was not asked to leave for that reason but some other reason i.e. swearing or unreasonable backchat etc. (there usually is some excuse they can use) This is all very much speculative though and again I state that this is usually one for the legal experts.

Posted By holmezy oops....lasped into a bit of latin there,,,,should be "discriminatioN"

Posted By sagalout Roy, what a very distressing situation your friend finds himself with. Difficult enough if you have experience and some organisational authority but without either of those it is almost untenable in this situation. My view differs from other contributors. Your friend is concerned about losing his job and probably feeling pretty hurt. Howver, I have to say that I think that some of the actions suggested may precipitate his sacking if he is "discovered" carrying out these activities in a clandestine manner. They could easily be seen as vindictive and designed to harm the company rather than help it. I would recoomend to your friend that he puts together a simple report of the unsafe acts and conditions that he has found; provides some data to support his judgement that they are unsafe (for example details of FLT accidents and causes); then make some recommendations. For example employee asked to use FLT in unsafe manner,managers do not adeqautely understand CURRENT safe procedures otherwise why would they ask, therefore educate or update them. I owuld avoid the not only did he but then also sent me home!!!*** If you are an h&s person you should be able to help him with the supporting data for the report.(details of accidents etc or where to look) Then he should arrange to formally meet with the person who appointed him to this position and talk through his concerns. Yes, it means putting his head above the parapet but from the standpoint of you asked me to do this job, this is my first report back to you and I need your help in moving this forward. That way he will have fulfilled a basic duty to inform and advise the "managememnt" of the company, done his best to improve safety through influencing decisions since he clearly has no formal status or authority to impose. It also provides a form of evidence for any later reviews, whether at a tribunal or as an internal tool as the company improves. If it doesn't work out, of course that would be sad but better that than to be left in the totally unacceptable situation you have decribed.

Posted By holmezy Sagalout, what you are suggesting sounds great, if the world was perfect and all companies did what they are supposed to do, maybe you work for a well organised organization? Its sounds like the company that Alan works for is a little lacking in H+S awareness and as such, is probably lacking in other procedural requirements. And I cant see how keeping a diary would be considered to be "clandestine"? At the end of the day, if the company doesn't accept its responsibilities and start looking after its employees, then its every man for his self and time to look after number one. Pleased to report that the spell check works....

Posted By sagalout Holmezy, I think it was the suggestion that it could be used as "I told you so" which suggested to me a motive other than to help the company. If we can think it, why can't an employer? If you have not alreadyb shared the plan to do so and any information arising from it at the point at which it is discovered some months into the record? I agree there is nothing wrong with recording facts as part of an agreed strategy to influence the changes needed. But without the understanding of the employer, a report witthuin a week or two; or some other positive action, it is an equally risky path for a relatively inexperienced and junior employee to take when measured against the risks of fronting up as soon as possible. ps. spellcheck isnt working for me at the moment, perhaops ned to log out and in again, so excuse any errors

Posted By holmezy Morgan, weak or not, it sounds an unacceptable situation. Telling management to shove it would not spur the mangement team into correcting their ways, they would just find someone else to pick on. I agree with you, Alan needs to stand up and be counted, after first ensuring that he is on solid ground. Hence the need to seek advice, keep evidence etc. Sometimes, only a fine or lost legal battle makes a company realise the error of its ways,,,,sometimes takes two or three payouts. Perhaps I should have said, "look after number one for the benefit of the masses and the greater good" Ooh its getting tooo philosophical now.... Does annoy me though when companies blatantly ignore requirements. I too was in a similar position in another life. And the company quickly backed down when faced with a diary of events,a little legal talk and the realisation that this one couldn't be bullied. But I do sympathise with Alan....

Posted By edwin I agree with much of what has been said, however if the company gets prosecuted who do you think they would blame - the Health and Safety Officer. Sounds like they may have appointed someone to be a scapegoat. Seems to me that its an untenable position and he should if possible revert back to his old role, or find another job elsewhere.

Posted By RA Roy, I can appreciate the predicament your friend is in all too well. And the reason I didn't stand up isn't what a previous poster stated as being weak- it boiled down to the fact that i was aware of being expendable. I had a family and a mortgage- if I had have spoken up against my skipper on the boat I would have been told where to go in no uncertain terms. Although we may all like to think this doesn't go in today's world but I 100% certain it does. If he can go higher than the manager he is dealing with then put his case to them/ Directors. If he feels that it won't be taken seriously then I am afraid he should try to get another job, but in the meantime keep a diary of any unsafe acts he is forced to do and also note that he voiced his objections. It's a sticky one mate, but that is the big bad world we live in and there are still numerous bosses out there who think they can do whatever they want and get it away with it- and the truth of the matter is that they can until someone either reports them or they get what they deserve, but all too often it is the foot soldiers that pay the big price. RA RA

Posted By Peter Taylor14 sections 15 and 100 employment rights act use it!!

Posted By Morgan Healey HSE may treat all comlaints with the strictest confidence but the employer doesnt have to be brain of britain to work out who notified them.

Posted By ddraigice HSE could quite easily do a visit without a complaint. If they do a general inspection there would be no need to concentrate on specific issues and so it's unlikely they'll think its from a complaint. If you specify the problem it can be treated as a nornal inspection.

Posted By Morgan Healey Square peg and round holes springs to mind here!!! At the end of the day although we all sympathise with the chap, he isnt strong enough to stand up for what he believes to be right, now whether this is because he lacks the knowledge or is afraid of confrontation, who knows unless he comes on here himself to explain, instead of getting a friend to sort it out for him. He was told to clock off and didnt ask why, what does that tell you about him. How do you think he will cope with the extra pressure if he notifies HSE. He isnt cut out for this sort of position, he should just revert back to his old position where he will probably be more happier. Morgan

Posted By Morgan Healey Of course it is.!!! providing they have been swept first. Morgan

Posted By sagalout Morgan, the serious response to your post is that whilst I understand your point and you may be correct about his ability, your solution only works if a someone with the "better" skills or personal attributes is appointed to the h&s position. Otherwise, how exactly does this guy work on in this environment? If nothing else changes, how exactly does this guy deal with the h&s issues. Report to the HSE who turn up and issue prohibition orders or stacks of improvement notices. Company folds as a result because they didn't care to start with and they ain't gonna change. Up sticks and appear somewhere else to carry on. Now all employees suffer equally? He is in the job and needs to make it work for everyones sake in this company. If he fails he may suffer personally but that is the real real world, whatever trade, profession or life you have.

Posted By Catman Been there and done it Jim. I was inexperienced and would now handle it differently, but some managment teams dont respond to anything else. it is difficult for a dual role, new safety person to stand up to the guy who pays his wages and say 'you are wrong', that also may end up with him in his 'comfy chair' at home and the company going once again with no H&S person. As is often obvious on this board, we deal with a huge variation of personalities and attitudes to each situation, only the guy himself will know what is best for him. Cheers TW

Posted By Morgan Healey Jim Couldnt agree with you more. Morgan

Posted By RA Morgan, I agree with some of your sentiments but if the guy doen't have the company/ management backing regarding H&S- it is a very big hill to climb and perhaps the repocussions for standing firm may be the door- if you have a family to support then the door option is ALWAYS avoided. But as another previous poster has said we do not know enough on the incident/company/person to speculate what should/shouldn't be done. RA

Posted By Catman A question for all above who recommend the guy leaves/does not phone the hse/does not become a social pariah. What would your advice be to the guys who are being asked to stand on the pallet on the forklift?

Posted By John Murgatroyd And you may well be correct. But. You probably aren't. Believe me, most SMEs' are an accident waiting to happen to the workforce, many of who are their own worst enemies. Large companies are not much better, they're just better at covering-up events. In many cases an accident is the first sign all is not well. However, at least a bad accident will bring the HSE around, even if only for the publicity (they arrive with their own entourage of "publicists") Lets see.....I've seen guys lifted up on pallets before....hell, I've seen guys tie a ROPE to the hydraulic lever and lift THEMSELVES up...then climb down the mast when the job was finished ! I've been walking past a building site when the tower crane was lifting a guy from the road to the canteen.....(must have been late for breakfast) You HONESTLY think the manager didn't KNOW it ? He sent the guy home for NOT doing it....managers make their own rules, just as long as it isn't THEM getting hurt. Maybe you think I'm a cynic ? I've been in the construction and engineering industry since 1970.....in that time I've seen a large amount of H&S paperwork, and very little H&S. It's all just so much crap...the managers don't want it, the workforce doesn't want it, and the HSE only wants the kudos.

Posted By Andrew Cartridge Oh & I forgot to mention, it's great here in New Zealand. Just for Andy, Jeff, Merv etc