Posted By sagalout John, I have to respond to your post. To leave it without a balancing view on this open forum is not acceptable to me. I disagree absolutely with everything you say and I do not recognise the picture you paint. I have worked across a whole spectrum of businesses from the "big and beautiful" to the "wild and wooly" to "back street alley". In divers risk environments from 200 feet below ground to 200 feet above ground and most everywhere in between. Is life perfect? thankfully not. Do some managers abuse their position? probably so. Do employee ignore safety rules for their own purposes? probably so. Are people exploited? yes. Do companies break the law? yes. Are there still too many people injured at work? absolutely. Do people care? not enough of us, enough of the time. Does sending in the safety police change anything? Yes but only in the limited way and last resort manner that all enforcement controls behaviour. Does criticising and chastising everyone involved achieve anything? Seems doubtful based on your experiences.

Posted By Booney John, "I've seen guys lifted up on pallets before....hell, I've seen guys tie a ROPE to the hydraulic lever and lift THEMSELVES up...then climb down the mast when the job was finished ! I've been walking past a building site when the tower crane was lifting a guy from the road to the canteen..." and what did you, as a h & s 'professional' do about these incidents?

Posted By Ian G Hutchings Roy I have found myself in a similar position in the past. I ensured that I made notes of what happened and the ongoing decisions that were made. I also put things in writing to people as well as producing costed business cases for some of the changes I recommended. In the end I decided that there were other organisations with better management and leadership and I left. As the famous proverb says "if you can't manage safety, you can't manage". The poor safety management, in my experience, is just symptomatic of others things, you're better out of it, but only after you have tried everything possible. There would be an enormous sense of achievement if your friend were to truly affect change.

Posted By YP Can I just stick up for Alan here There has been a lot of assumptions that he is weak and that if he cant hack it he shouldn't be in health and safety, problem solved. In the original post it says he stood up for what he thought and didn't carry out the dangerous activity his manager asked him to, a lot of people wouldn't do that. You assume he clocked off without asking why when he was asked, it doesn't say that. He is someone new to safety and is asking for help to improve the situation he is not ignoring it and hoping it will get better. Quite a few of the responses here are not going to convince new HS people to ask for help on this forum or convince Alan if he reads it that HS is something to stick with. Can we ease off with the comments and look at practical solutions only.

Posted By John Murgatroyd "employment courts" Read, digest: http://www.citizensadvic...s_index/press-050401.htm If you EXCLUDE large companies and public services (councils etc) from employment court cases the picture gets MUCH worse. With the exclusions the amount of non-payers roasts-up to nearly 40%. One (unnameable.....cannot afford protracted legal cases) "employers" organisation recommends not paying because the civil action resulting won't happen in many cases. "The Court of Appeal in Street v Derbyshire UWC held that an employee can fail the good faith test and lose PIDA protection where a tribunal finds that their dominant or predominant motive for making the disclosure was unrelated to the public interest objectives of the Act" An employment court is something you fall-back on where all else has failed, and when you've got nothing to lose. Oh, and I'm not a H&S professional. And in the real world, whistle blowing results in never getting another job. If you wish to research the subject, you'll find that a few "employers organisations" maintain databases of "trouble makers"..........word-of-mouth accounts for the remaining.

Posted By darren booth the hse are not there just as an enforcement body. maybe the person referred to in the original post could discuss with his senior manager, the possibility of asking the hse for help and guidance. if it was me facing this scenario,the hse would have been contacted immediately, but i am a union representative, not a manager!

Posted By gham with regards to the post suggesting locking the thread. Have you concidered that the original poster may have been put off offering a reply in fear of being further slated on this site

Posted By John Murgatroyd Quite right Carol. However, mortgage, bills, etc. Finding a new job....and all that. It's very easy to say "stand up for yourself", but you need to look at it from the guys point of view. Employment court ?. That doesn't pay the bills does it, and it takes time...loads. And, as the HSE infoline told me "there is no law in this country that allows you to refuse to work even if it is unsafe" Obviously, the original poster has a problem with management, which in turn has a problem with H&S and humanity. but, don't they all ? Good job we're not in Germany............ "Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit. Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990. The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse"

Posted By AJM Isnt this whole thread Indicative of the way some companies are run and the very reasoning behind my "IS THIS AS RADICAL AS IT SEEMS" thread. Alan

Posted By Roy Male Hello All For all those who have commented, Thank you. In response to one comment it was not a case that I could not be bothered to give an update it was that I was having a long weekend with my family. I have been talking to Alan since I have come back and he has basically carried out the advice from a number of the views expressed in the thread. 1) He has formally raised a grievance procedure against the production manager. 2) He collected all the evidence in respect of the lack of health and safety in the business, with a number of examples. 3) He told the owners of the impact to the business if a serious accident occurred, investigation by the HSE, fine, compensation claim etc. He emailed the information to the owners and it had an immediate effect. Alan's grievance was immediately investigated and it was upheld. The production manager was reminded of his health and safety responsibilities and was warned of his future conduct. Alan received a formal apology from the manager. The production manager was instructed to work closely with Alan on all health and safety matters. The owners instructed Alan to send them a report every month on Health and Safety with action plans to address any immediate health and safety concerns. I am glad that Alan has resolved his problem but we are all aware that not all owners may take the same view. Again thank you all. Roy

Posted By Jim Walker Brilliant result Roy, Sounds like Allan is a natural safety bod, I'm sure your help played a big part too.