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Posted By Ian R McCartney
We have an outdoor education centre in a rural location which is surrounded by farmland. Pupils carry out outdoor activities in the grounds and have access to the local countryside for some activities. One of the farms adjoining the property permits pheasant shooting arranged by a third party. There have been several instances of shot landing in the grounds and outbuildings and we are concerned about the possible risk to pupils and staff and are looking at our duties of care. There are also issues of trauma to children from vulnerable backgrounds sometimes from the worlds troubled areas.
Extensive enquiries through the local councils and police have not been able to identify the licencing arrangements for shoots. We have chapter and verse from our legal department on the law but in practice no one at local level seem able to identify the way in which shoots are controlled
Does anyone have experience of a similar problem and its solutions.
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Posted By andymak
As far as I am aware there are no such rules and regs on organised shoots on private land. As long as the shoot organiser has taken reasonable steps to preserve life and limb of those working for the shoot and of those likely to be in the vacinity there is I think very little that can be done.
Obviously there are rules around firearms and licensing which must be obeyed, but I can think of nothing that will be of help to you.
It would be worth approaching the land owners / shoot organisers to discuss your concerns with them, most I would be sure will be understanding and sympathetic.
I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm the pheasant pluckers mate, I'm sitting plucking pheasants 'cause the pheasant pluckers late!
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Posted By sagalout
Ian, do not have a simple answer for you about licensing. Have you tried the British Association for Shooting and Conservation website? (BASC)
I think I remember that they have a lot of professioanl guidance on that site including stuff like risk assessments, policies etc.
May not answer you directly but could give you the next steps??
Have you been along the good neighbour route? Most rural shoots are very aware of their neighbours and always try to work with them over any number of matters.
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Posted By sagalout
Perhaps i should have included the follwoing in my first post.
An organised shoot is an "undertaking" and as such is subject to all usual laws and regs. It will almost certainly employ someone to organise and prepare including in the case of a pheasant shoot, the rearing of birds.
HASAWA will apply just as it does for any undertaking. (Ooh did I mean that pun about shoots and undertaking?)
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Posted By Lilian McCartney
Hi Ian,
I think it's a good idea to speak to the shoot organisers first.
I don't know where I got this from, but I was always led to believe that you are supposed to shoot into your property and not out of. Therefore, for shot to land on your premises they are shooting out of.
I would have thought that if this was other than good practice some one has told me about the weapons licensing people would know about codes of practice etc.
Certainly when a person shot a rabbit from a wood into the field where my horse was I mentioned this to them and they seemed to agree (i.e. they didn't shoot me!)
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Posted By sagalout
One of the fundamental codes of behaviour when using a shotgun is:
"Before you fire your shotgun, consider where the shot will go, allowing for possible ricochets. Do not fire at quarry unless you are sure it is within range and ensure you know what is behind it."
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Posted By GJB
Ian,
Some good viewpoints above. I'm a bit unsure in terms of the response about 'organised' shoots. Colleagues of mine are members of a 'shoot' to which they pay money into and undertake to rearing the birds, etc. No one gets a wage or salary from it. Therefore, to say HSAWA applies, could be misleading... they are a group of people who pay into a 'club' to pay for birds, etc. They have 'organised' shoots and of course all of them have licences, etc.
They tend not to shoot every day, in fact, they have agreed days when they do shoot. Perhaps have a word with the organiser and find out when their particular shooting days are? You can then possibly avoid those days?
Take care! And I have a great recipe for Pheasant Pate if you're interested Merv?
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Posted By Merv Newman
Pheasant Casserole
4 pheasants quartered
25 gm flour
25 gm butter or maragarine
1 onion chopped
50 gm golden raisins
50 gm chili sauce
25 gm water
25 gm brown sugar
2 TBS. Worchesershire sauce
1 fat garlic clove, crushed or choped
Glass (100 gm) red wine (rest of bottle may be drunk later. Or as soon as you like)
500 gm can pitted dark sweet cherries, drained
Dust pheasants with flour. Melt butter in a heavy frying pan. Brown birds thoroughly. Place pheasants in a deep casserole. In the same frying pan, combine onion, raisins, chili sauce, water, brown sugar, Worchestershire sauce and garlic; boil briefly, scraping browned meat from bottom and sides of pan; pour over peasants. Bake covered, in a moderately slow oven (180 degrees) for 1 1/2 hours. remove cover; add sherry and cherries. Continue baking 20 minutes longer. To serve transfer to a deep serving dish. This works well with wild rice and a fresh green vegetable. Bon Appetite!!and Happy Christmas
Something fairly heavy for the cooking and drinkinng. Maybe a Burgundy such as Nuits St George or even a Volnay from a bit further south ?
Have a nice weekend
Merv
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Posted By sagalout
GJB,
You are quite right to question my comment about HASAW, it is not always that straightforward and I should have been more specific.
Need to be careful though because if there is a gillie or keeper who provides the service to the club, rears the birds, attends on the day to supervise the shoot etc then that is where the undertaking can arise. If he/she is seen as self employed to provide that service in exchange for a sum of money, your club members could then be seen as paying guests to that undertaking. So the duty would be with them and not your club.
But as you say, it is more important to follow the excellent codes of practice regardless of the esoterics of whether the law applies. Interesting subject though eh? I never fail to be amazed at where H&S takes me.
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Posted By Merv Newman
Sorry, that should have been "pour it over the PHEASANTS"
Merv
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Posted By Tony Brunskill
Never mind Merv let em eat cake!
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Posted By Geoff Parkinson
Driven shooting and H&S have become a 'high focus' topic lately. As all driven shoots require beaters - who are paid in money or kind - the activity creates an employee and employer situation. Therefore, the Management Regs etc all apply. If you contact the Landowner and ask for the details of the Shoot Captain, he/she should be able to furnish you with all the necessary risk assessments etc for you to view and comment on.
It is possible that the assessments haven't been done, in which case I suggest you make a fuss and insist (as they are now a statutory duty) are completed. If correctly done all your concerns should be addressed.
Incidentally, the Firearms Act 1968 lays down specific minimum distances that you may shoot from a public highway, thoroughfare, footpath etc, but also carries a significant caveat that these distances are only acceptable if the discharge of ther firearm does not cause a nuisance to others. This might prove useful to you to deal with the children being scared issue that you mentioned.
Most shoots are desperate to raise thier profile and assist in building good PR links wherever possible, so you should be OK.
This information is based on first-hand experience, and I hasten to add, the shoot that I participate in is fully H&S compliant and we recently went through the assessment process etc:-)
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Posted By Jim Walker
Before getting confrontational with laws & rules, why don't you have a quiet word with these people? Just because they shoot does not mean they are likely to be unreasonable.
They might be unaware they were causing a problem and an easy compromise can be arranged.
Be aware that this activity may well have been going on eons before your establishment came into being. I have to admit your opening thread sounds a bit like one of those townies who demand their rights, but are not prepared to tolerate activities of others.
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Posted By Geoff Parkinson
Jim
none of my post is intended to infer an abrupt approach. However, if you get an abrupt brush-off from the Shoot Captain, mentioning the Firearms Act etc will make him realise you require 'proper' answers.
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Posted By Jim Walker
Geoff,
I wasnt refering to anyone in particular and yes I agree you need something up your sleeve.
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Posted By Renny Thomson
Merv,
I like the contents of your recipie, now all I need are the pheasants.
Just one comment....
I though you were more of a lbs and oz. era than this metric stuff :-)
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Posted By GJB
That's what comes from living in the shadow of the Euro! They get us all in the end!
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Posted By Merv Newman
Actually I can talk to you in Newtons, or Mega-pascals, if you like. (whats the rating of your overhead crane ?)
And I hate it when newspapers use "m" instead of "M" for mega.
Remember, its K,M,G,T,P : Kiss My Giant Turtle, Pet. (10 to the plus fifteen)(ginormous)
If you want it the other way (some do) m, mu, p, f, a : mike's mum picked a feminine 'at (10 to the minus 15)(rather dinky)
Though I do remember calculating water hardness in Grains per Gallon (imperial, not US)
And let's all have a drink for Raemur on his 80th birthday ! (though we may be a degree late)
And, going back to the orginal theme of this thread, "good shots do it on full choke"
Ah well, "back to threading those damn beads"
Merv (19h30 and on his way to becoming thoroughly metricated)
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Posted By Brett Day
First off I would try the friendly approach with the shoot and raise your concerns, they may not be aware that the shot is straying and will modify thier actions accordingly.
Without wishing to 'put down' local police. I would be inclined to have a chat with your local firearms unit rather than a 'beat' copper. They have the specialist knowledge and can give proper guidance. They have been known to have a quiet word with the shoot themselves.
After all if shot is straying into your schools grounds and someone is hit by the shot, it would be the firearms unit who would 'secure' an area before an ambulance crew would attend.
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Posted By Geoff Parkinson
Brett,
tread carefully with the 'careful word' approach. One thing it doesn't do is produce a log of what's gone on. If an accident happens, and you can't prove you have done anything about it (but you state you knew the shot fell over the boundary) it may may you 'percentage liable'. I'm not saying serve written notice on people, but try to back up things in writing - in a friedly manner of course :-)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Merv
Where does 'nano' fit into your mnemonic? 'a' for 'atto' is 10 to the minus 18 where I come from!
Paul
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Posted By Merv Newman
Paul,
lets go through it :
10-3 is milli
10-6 is micro
10-9 is pico
10-12 is femto
10-15 is atto
My brain doesn't go beyond that.
Going up :
10+3 is Kilo
10+6 is Mega
10+9 is Giga
10+12 is Terra
10+15 is Petra
Which is where my brain actually goes boingggg
Sorry
Merv (brain hurting)
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Posted By Brett Day
Geoff
I appreaciate your comments, the idea was to try this first, the next shoot would be the proof of how interested they are in dealing with this. And the next step would be to talk to the local firearms unit.
It was not my intention to convey that this should go unheeded or undocumented.
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Merv
My version goes:
10-3 milli
10-6 micro
10-9 nano
10-12 pico
10-15 femto
10-18 atto
10-21 zepto
10-24 yocto
although I don't worry too much about anything less than nano.
Paul
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Posted By GJB
Are these all names you give the pheasants before you blow them out of the sky?!!
You know, a bit like Jacob's sons... Simeon, Reuben, Napthali, Zebulon, etc??
Take care! ;-)
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Posted By Merv Newman
GJB
you could be right. Zebulon was the youngest and therefore the smallest.
Or was that Zebedee. Boing
I think this thread has run it's course. it is now descending into coarse humour and sexual innuendo. The monitors should lock it. And, of course, delete this response within the following 10 seconds.
Merv (Mini-bar is now empty)
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Posted By jackw.
Hi, if the children are "peasants" why not just shoot them too..worked in my day!!!!! hmm almost friday!!!!!!!
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