Posted By J Knight Hi AJM, I suppose I have two distinct thoughts on this. One is, just how big would HSE have to be to carry this through? The other is a certain degree of cynicism, borne of experience. For example, all Healthcare & Care providers already pretty much have to do this, but people are still left to eat their lunch sitting in a urine soaked bed in NHS hospitals, and there are some truly dreadful care providers out there, as witness by the recent scandal around LD care in Cornwall. In other words, the right boxes get ticked, but audit, reports and reality aren't the same things, however much some people might like them to be, John

Posted By GJB Alan, My view on this is that perhaps the larger organisations are already conforming? It's the smaller companies, with perhaps tighter budgets who do not invest in safety. Take the new Electrical Reg's etc. They were designed to stop, for want of a better word, 'The Cowboys' installing unsafely. Have they achieved this? I think not! The larger, responsible companies have had to up-skill their electricians, sitting exams etc. (Which I think is a good point, incidentally) whereas the 'Cowboys' are still out there, doing small 'add-ons' new plug sockets, etc. Why is this? Well, in my opinion, the larger firms have to cover exam times, increased costs, as the electrician is now better qualified they will demand increased wages, etc. etc. The 'Cowboy' has no additional overheads, so will install 'an additional plug socket for Mrs. Smith' for say, £30? A little of thread, but I'm sure you get my view?! Take care!

Posted By GJB Good response SB, That word 'Diplomacy' crops up again! Great definition of diplomacy:- The ability to tell a person to go to Hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip! Take care!

Posted By Merv Newman I work within a legal regime where ALL injuries which require "off-site" treatment must be declared to social security, "lost time" or not. (and the first day off classifies the injury as "lost time") First-aid treatments are recorded by the company and declared annually. Union safety reps get involved in accident inquires systematically as is required by law. Compulsory accident health and safety insurance is also paid to a government run organisation which sets the premiums based on your or your industry's accident rate over the previous three years. (anything from 1 to 17% of your total wage bill) And the (1-day) national average accident rate is approximately 500 per 100 000 workers; Even with underreporting from small and/or non-unionised companies Has anyone ever calculated the statistical difference between "simple visits to hospital or doctor because of an accident" and "Lost Time Injuries" ? I know that some UK companies in addition to the usual stats also keep OSHA / 200 000 hours and/or European / 1 000 000 hours. (both based on the 1-day rule. I would be very interested in any comparative figures. Anyway, to get back to the original posting, I think that the UK H&S system is already better than that in many other countries; Despite it's faults. I used to know the latin for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" Maybe the "gold plating" is a good thing ? donthurtmedonthurtme ! Merv

Posted By Ron Hunter Radical? hmmm.....instead of the HSE, send the 'health & safety annual report' to shareholders ( with a copy available in the public domain), along with the news that this year's dividend has been reduced in order to allow sufficient investment in H&S improvements? We need an increased recognition of corporate social and moral responsibility, not an increase in legislation, which one could argue exists only to provide a framework for punishment of those unlucky enough to be caught by the regulators?

Posted By AJM Ron, Although I take your point on increased recognition of corporate social and moral responsibility, but I don't on the reduction of premiums for shareholders, I personally don't look at it like its a cost the benefits far out-way the cost as the chap in charge of the Piper Alpha disaster said " You think safety is expensive try having an accident" It can work the other way because companies have had countless fines and compensation claims so insurance is sky high that's if they will insure you. What do shareholders say then when their dividend is low. Maybe its me but i believe good safety is cost effective most of the biggest most profitable companies in he world are built on managing everything including Safety competently. Alan

Posted By sagalout Alan, I join the camp that says it is neither practicable nor effective. Not practicable because the sheer volume would drown the HSE without massive extra resource. If they were ever to be given extra resource I would prefer to see it used for a return to the honest foot soldier HSE inspector who you saw regularly. They were hundreds of times more effective than any paper system in helping H&S staff to build respect for H&S in companies. (not saying they are no longer, just don't see them as much) It is a irrefutable fact of life that most people and/or companies in this country of ours break laws almost everyday through a mixture of ignorance and willful disregard. Adding a legal duty to report would change some but not, I fear, very many at all. Add to that the recognition that the pain felt by any organisation or individual from enforcement is usually very far removed. Much further away in real terms than the failure to make profit this month, thus this tends to drive business to take risks in lots of areas including H&S. I can tell you stories of managers who have said to my face, "I don't care, I will not be here when and if the fine is due!" (yes I did before the pens twitch) Additionally, I have a horrible suspicion that there is a wider acceptance of law breaking than was apparent in my younger days. For example, we all know the law on speeding but we only slow down at the speed camera? We should not be surprised then if this trait commonly appears in business management. It is, of course, our job as H&S professionals to reduce injury by whatever means we have at our disposal but I do not think having to report every accident to HSE would be a useful additional tool.

Posted By sagalout Merv, just so you do not drive yourself mad trying to remember the Latin for "if it ain't broke" "Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere" is probably near enough (as remembered from my schoolboy Latin--oh how that classical education was so wasted on me!)

Posted By AJM Right being as i started this thread I will have my last say. Lots of people here including my hero Merv talk about if it is not broke don't fix it and paper chases and bureaucracy. But on the other hand we are saying there are lots of problems, cowboys and flagrant disregard for the law out there. Now to me that last paragraph says there is something that requires fixing if it is practicable or not is another matter. All I am trying to say is to indicate these unscrupulous companies are out there and that we can not do anything about it due to resources or time. But is this not the very same excuses used in these companies for not addressing Safety issues by management at source. In some ways I was not indicating more paper exercises just a more direct way of eradicating this problem, and as indicated earlier I too believe that the reduction in Inspectors on the beat as it were has seen some companies take more chances because as I always say about companies like that "There is nobody so blind as those that don't want to see" Thanks everyone for your input by the way i found it very interesting and thought provoking. Alan

Posted By AJM Nice one Steve, I agree as i previously stated rationale is my best tool, I feel i can afford rationale to every safety decision i make and every piece of HSE guidance and legislation the problem is some of them need to be force fed. Alan

Posted By GJB Steve, Will it work on my wife? Take care!

Posted By John Lewis Merv is right. We are better in the UK than many other areas of Europe within the EU. An example thus; A few years ago I had a 'phone call in work from my boss who was in Greece on holiday. He just had to tell me what he was watching and I sat, gobsmacked, as he described over the next half hour what he was watching from his balcony. A tower crane on an adjacent hotel development had dropped a skip onto a dual carriageway. This spilled the wet concrete it was carrying. The work force then spilled onto the road and began shovelling the concrete back into the skip as vehicles sped past at whatever the limit was, certainly not slow. Then they slung the skip again and lifted it from only three points off the road because the fourth sling had snapped. As it cleared the boundary of the site it fell again, predictably from the stressed single sling and poured the rapidly curing concrete over the office cabins; where it remained! At no time did even the police turn up to control the traffic and work continued on site. I suspect that in the UK there would be slightly more repercussions.