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Posted By rks
I am a member of a golf club that has numerous holes that run parallel with a country road.Recently a ball went over the wall and hit a car causing some damage to it. The club have paid for repairs to the vehicle in question but the person who's car got hit is claiming for the use of a hire car but the club is refusing to pay for it.
The person in question is now threatening to get the HSE involved. I cannot see how the HSE can get involved or what the outcome could be. I think that it would be unreasonable to put netting up for such a long stretch of wall and think that if you are required to get planning we will not be able to as it will affect the horizon of the place were the club is situated.
Has anybody any thoughts or advice on the subject.
Regards
RKS
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
This is a particularly tricky subject. I suspect the HSE will not wish to get involved as you suggest, partly because golf clubs generally come under the auspices of the local health authority and not the HSE.
The risks from errant golf balls is not unusual for many clubs and therefore the geographic nature of each particular club will have to be addressed. One method of preventing errant golf balls from reaching long distances is to provide appropriate hazards on the course/hole, in order to dissuade people from using say a driver e.g. strategic placing of bunkers, a water hazard and so on.
At my club we had a similar incident where a golf ball damaged a car parked in a drive way adjacent to the course. The Claimant backed off when the concept of volenti non fit injuria was explained. The house was built after the golf course and he could park the car in his garage etc.
I suspect he is pushing his luck by asking for costs for a hire car to be paid by the club. If it was, me I would be inclined to refuse payment politely and if he wishes to pursue it with the HSE, so be it.
Regards
Ray
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Posted By gham
why not just pay for the hire car, it is an incidental cost to the damage the ball caused.
If they are disputing the hire car why did they not dipute the repair bill too
or give the guy a free membership for a year....
Just a passing thought, just as well it wasn't a convertable
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Posted By John Watson
It seems a reasonable request to me. If his car is off the road for repairs inflicted by one of your members then he has been inconvenienced by you, and should not suffer.
John
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Posted By rks
Free membership!
If word got out every golfer in the area will be driving up and down the road hoping there car would get hit. Me included.
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Posted By J Knight
The HSE Guide to Golf Course Management (HSG79)mainly concerns itself with risks to employees and members from the club's activities, rather than those caused by members playing golf. It does mention (and I mean mention; one sentence) that tees should drive away from roads and obvious stuff like that, but I too would be surprised if HSE thought this was in their remit,
John
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Come on guys, we are talking about a golf ball, not an exocept rocket! Can a golf ball really make his car unroadworthy?
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Posted By J Knight
Hi Raymond,
take your point, but if it needs bodywork it would be off the road for a day or two. Not that I'm saying that I automatically agree with his case, but I can see where he could make one,
John
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Posted By CRT
HSE are not the enforcing authority, it would be the LA. Why dont you pass the claim on to your insurers and let them sort out what they believe is appropriate in the circumstances.
As for prevention, consider whether you have had many errant shots at this hole, you then get foreseeability which in turn should suggest consideration of control measures such as fencing, re-aligning the hole etc etc.
Ive dealt with a similar issue at a local driving range, fencing was installed but still problems persisted, in the end the owner, on the advice of a golf course designer, moved the tee so as to make it impossible to over shoot the protective fencing.
hope this helps
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Posted By James Little
Not a stick ball man myself, but are golfers not supposed to have individual insurance that would cover such events? & if so why is the club footing the bill?
Just a thought.
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Posted By gham
Raymond
yes it only has to put a big enough crack in a windscreen and it would fail a road worthyness check by VOSA
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Posted By Jim Walker
I'm driving along quite legally and some idiot damages my wheels. Why should I be out of pocket or unreasonably inconvenienced?
The ball onto the highway was perfectly foreseeable. Cough up, send him a bottle as goodwill and get your controls in place.
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Posted By rks
Thanks for the responses so far.
There is no way that the holes could be re directed due to the lack of space the course is situated in.
The reason the club paid, through there insurance, is the person who hit the ball is a member and therefore with it being a private club the person being an owner of the club.
Even with the damage that you are saying could happen with a golf ball I agree with Raymond and cannot understand that he would require a hire car for a couple of days.It can't take that long to fix a bit of body work damage or a cracked windscreen
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Posted By Ron Young
Why is this an HSE thing, where's the health and safety at work angle with this driver. If he wants compensation, he should be dealing with that through his insurers or one of the ambulance chasing company's around
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Posted By rks
Sorry Jim I posted just after you did.
Your quote: "I'm driving along quite legally and some idiot damages my wheels. Why should I be out of pocket or unreasonably inconvenienced?"
I didn't realise that you tell a persons level of intelligence by their ability to hit a golf ball straight.
Thanks for the insight.
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Okay, a golf ball could crack a windscreen etc (but this has never confirmed). The original posting asked for 'any advice or thoughts on the subject'. There must be an element of fairness too. The club has paid for the repair and not negated its responsibility, which they could have.
It is my understanding that individual golfers are protected via the club's insurance. The golf club would undoubtedly be subject to HSWA. Although the only course of action to the individual would be a Civil Claim for failure of a duty of care (Tort of negligence). Whether this would be successful is a matter of conjecture.
Ray
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Posted By Ron Young
I'm sorry I may be stupid but, golfer at 1st tee, not at work, hooks his shot and his ball hits a car as it passes the golf course. Where is the HASAW link here? What law has been broken? It surely is at most, a civil action for remedy of loss by the driver against the golf club.
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Ron
The golf club would fall under HSWA if it employed 5 or more people, as it most surely does. Section 7 applies.
Incidentally, you cannot make a Civil Claim with HSWA, it explicitly forbids it.
Ray
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Posted By Les Welling
I agree. The driver may have to put his car into a garage for body repair work for a day or so. I believe that it is reasonable to pay the cost of a hire car.
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Posted By Ali
Without doubt it is LA enforced. If they do visit they will want to see your risk assessment and what additional measures you have put in place to prevent a recurrence. If there is no RA then expect an Improvement Notice - assuming they come out at all. It may be no more than a phone call + leaflets, particularly if there were no injuries. The decision to hire the car was the driver's and that is irrespective of what happened later, so he really cannot complain about that. Suppose he was involved in a car accident - Insurance would have paid for the damage only.
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
Ray,
The club falls under HASAWA if it employs just one person.
Alan
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Posted By Melanie Torrance
Golf courses are indeed covered by Local Authorities when it comes to enforcement. Working in an area which is awash with golf clubs, this is a common problem. However, the actual act of playing golf itself is not seen as the main activity of the golf club. The club's undertaking is the provision of the golf course i.e. mowing, spraying etc and those are the activities to which the HSAWA applies. The club's insurance in my experience would not cover errant balls - this would be covered by the individual golfer's insurance. Usually clubs will offer individual insurance to their members through their own insurance company.
There is an expectation that the course should be altered or fences or trees put in place to stop errant balls, if balls are regularly going out of the course boundary and onto a road for example, but it certainly wouldn't be worthy of an improvement notice.
I think you should consult your insurance company before doing anything else.
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Posted By Ron Young
I was trying to phrase a response to Raymond but you have just done it for me Melanie, thanks.
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Posted By GJB
We keep saying how paramount training is... Well, let's get the club pro to give free lessons... how to hit the ball like a professional!!
In seriousness, a couple of courses that I have played that have adjoining properties have either placed a short area of netting or, and I liked this one, allowed you to only tee-off from that particular hole with an iron. They banned drivers and woods. And for those 'Non-idiots' who don't play the wonderful game of golf, by using an iron off the tee, there is less chance of hitting a stray ball than if you were to use a driver or a wood.
A national Newspaper will no doubt try and get the game of golf banned soon, anyway!
Take care!
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Posted By MetalMan
I cannot see what the problem is here! A car on a public road was damaged by a golf ball coming from the golf course. The persons car was damaged and required work done. The person has a hire car for the period it takes to repair his car (have you recently had any repair work done on a car and found out how long it can take? even minor work can take days!!!)and now you don't want to pay him!! Does this not come under h+s? If this was a factory and a member of the public suffered damage to his car due to something being ejected from the factory onto a public road would not this be a case for the HSE?
Bottom line is the person would not be trying to claim if his car had not been damaged by a golf ball in the first place!
If only organisations just took responsibility when they are genuinly in the wrong insted of trying to squirm out of things. Show some goodwill and pay for his hire car, even if he's pulling a fast one and trying to make a few extra quid, considering the unexpected hassle of having to sort out car repairs I don't blame him!
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Alan, thank you for that correction.
With respect, I do not concur with all Melanie's assertions. I believe that errant golf balls and other similar matters would be part of the golf clubs 'undertaking', a moot point, granted.
As for insurance, a golf club should have public liability insurance. This would cover any damages such as a golf ball damaging a vehicle. Golfers themselves do not normally have any individual insurance cover whilst on the course.
If I am incorrect I am sure someone will correct me!
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Posted By Jim Walker
RKS,
In my opinion (opinion mind!)
Anyone owning a golf club let alone slicing a shot is a bit dim.
A good walk spoilt so far as I can see!
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Posted By GJB
You've missed your vocation in life, Jim!
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Posted By MT
I can assure you that, working in an area with over 40 golf courses, individual golfers do indeed have insurance which covers them if their golf ball injures someone or damages property. I know many golfers and they are all individually insured for this reason. Generally the golfer is offered the insurance by their club, and it's all paid for along with their annual membership fee. Perhaps it's more common in this sort of area, which is quite densely populated with golf courses!
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Posted By Steven
Golfers do have personal insurance against damage and injury to property and/or persons. Granted not all have it but it is availible.
In my opinion i do not know why the Golf Club has paid to have the car repaired, was it through their insurance or out of their own club funds?
If it was through insurance company why did they not take into account the need for a replacement car while the damaged one was being prepared?
Steve
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Posted By GJB
I'm with Melanie on this one! Part of my annual fees are to cover insurance.
Regards,
A Dim-Idiot
Apology accepted anyway Jim! :-)
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Posted By rks
The club did pay through their own insurance but the person who's car got hit has come up and asked to be reimbursed for a hire car that he paid for out of his own pocket.
Jim thanks for your opinion. I don't want to make you look like an idiot but he hooked the ball and not sliced it.
Regards
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Posted By Jim Walker
Hooked sliced ?
Am I supposed to care what you want to call it?
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Posted By GJB
Ooh, Jim, come on now... Use every day as a learning opportunity!
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Posted By rks
Its only a bit of banter Jim. Even a idiot golfer or a dumb slicer or dumb hooker could realise that.
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Posted By JM82
I thought this was about golf not soliciting!! lol
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Posted By CB
I was thinking it was more rhyming slang than ladies of the night!
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Posted By John Watson
Jim
Have you thought about applying next time theirs a job in the Diplomatic core?
John
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Posted By Harry_Johnson
...theirs a job in the Diplomatic core?
Or you teaching English?
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
I have now hidden the last eight messages and placed a temporary locked this thread until I have sought a view from other members of the moderating team.
Arran Linton-Smith
IOSH Chat Forum Moderator
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