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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Dear reader.
I was wondering if anybody can advise as to, what, if any monitoring is required when staffs, who will be working outdoors but for a six month task, will be required whilst working in known medium-high radon area's.
Short duration works is covered by hse, defra, dha, but nothing for long term.
Radon is a natural by-product uranium 283.
Any help or advice is welcomed. I have also been in contact with our own Occ Health dept and am awaiting their advice.
Thanks for your time.
Regards
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Jonathon
None, in normal circumstances. As radon is a gas normal ventilation and diffusion will dilute it to acceptable levels.
Regards Adrian Watson
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Posted By Ian Waldram
I agree with Adrian. The concern in 'high radon' areas is where the gas can seep from the ground into buildings and become more concentrated there. The standard solution, if there is any concern, is to fit a small fan to vent the area to atmosphere, where it can disperse. So working in the open air is no problem at all.
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
Since the chance of radon inhalation in the open air causing cancer is vanishingly small, your worries are exactly the same. The "victim" of said inhalation will expire from other reasons first.....heart attack caused by excessive ingestion of fatty foods (you could try altering your safety policy to ban the use of fatty foods and sugars during work times)
Lung cancer caused by inhalation of second-hand smoke etc.
But your best bet is to have your entire staff checked for genetic abnormalities that may lead to cancer, and then sack them to reduce that chance of it occurring while they work for you.
You could order the "radon pack" http://www.nrpb.org/hpa/shop/overview.cfm, and check your BUILDINGS !
Or you could read this: http://www.hpa.org.uk/hp...ponse_statement_4_04.htm
Which gives various comparative data....right at the end.....note the difference between the average dose for radon and that in a "worst-case" domestic scenario.
Don't forget the sunscreen !
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Posted By Merv Newman
In granitic areas, such as Dartmoor, there is a small seepage of radon which can build up in unventilated areas such as in a cellar.
In above ground rooms with even minimum ventilation no significant levels will occur.
Outside ? No way.
Merv
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
That's not strictly the case Merv, as this link shows....just reading the precis and not buying the book. I could have cut-and-pasted it, but I have been reminded that any such activity is a breach of copyright (as is the use of the site URL.....according to the google lawsuit (ish))
http://www.ingentaconnec...000014/00000012/art00005
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Posted By Bruce Sutherland
I have just had a look at the link - the paper appears to refers to radon concentration in a building - I live on Dartmoor and work in Devon and Cornwall - we do not normally consider radon to be a risk in an external situation - we have considered it externally for tunneling in relation to the position of the air extract, and obviously for the underground work but would agree with Merv that for naturally occurring source in UK then dilution would dissipate dose.
Bruce
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
I posted it to demonstrate that levels within multi-level biulings can be high as well....outdoor levels, as you said, are insignificant.
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Dear all.
I thank you for your comments, but as i stated the staffs will be exposed to the gas for a six month period, however the works will be conducted outdoors.
In the unlikely event of no wind above 1mph, for a three week period, for example, the gas could be breathed in directly by the operatives, LEV's, outdoors dispursment into etc..
Yes people live and work around radon every day, but this does not vindicate the employer under 3.1 or under 2.2.
The levels are 30%+ norm.
1. Am I going over the top?
2. If no can I please have clear and simple advice.
Thanks for your help.
Regards
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Johnathon,
Yes, I beliive that you are ott.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By John Donaldson
Jonathon,
I would agree with the comments given above regarding the risk outdoors.
However, if you come to the conclusion that there is likely to be an exposure to ionising radiation you must appoint a Radiation Protection Advisor as required by the Ionising Radiation Regulations 1999.
The RPA will then give you advise on how to manage the risk.
And also under IRR99 there is a requirement to inform the HSE if you intend to work with ionising radiation.
HSE do have a web page covering ionising radiation.
John
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Adrian.
It is a fine balance, I agree, but should we not err on the side of caution? In this situation I am of the humble opinion, that due to the nature of the exposure being a six month period, working a normal eight hour shift, five to six days week, then surely the laws of statistics increase the likely outcome to be medium to high risk to the operative?
We could argue that motor mechanic who started working in the 1970's have been exposed to high levels of asbestos fibres, admitted their works where being carried out in doors which has increased their exposure levels but even persons working outdoors near too the work shop could have breathed in the fibres.
Theirs is a long term exposure agreed, but ours is short term exposure to med-high radon gas levels.
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Paul
Yes, but thanks for the link.
None of the above mentioned has either concidered external exposure levels for a six month period, or maybe they do not think there is a problem!
regards.
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Dear Johnathon,
In both cases the risk is of lung cancer from long term exposure over years to a carcinogen! The HPA has advised that indoor radon above an Action Level of 200 becquerels per cubic metre should be reduced. This level is based on protecting vunerable people who are exposed 16 hours a day for life!
Putting that in context 6 months outdoors is not long. Futhermore I would be suprised if you get higher than 20-30 becquerels per cubic metre anywhere outdoors.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Jonathan
In the HPA's animation 'Radon at a Glance', there is a bar chart showing the lifetime risk from radon induced cancer at various levels of exposure. At 70 bq per cu.m. there is a 1% chance over a lifetime; at 200 bq per cu.m, the risk is 1%. Since, as the others have said, the radon level outside is likely to be very low (barring peculiar atmospheric conditions), the increased risk from a six-month exposure will be very low.
If you decide there is a significant risk, what are you going to do about it?
Paul
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Posted By John Donaldson
Dear Jonathon,
I would again remind you that if you are going to work with Ionising Radiation its a legal requirement that you appoint a RPA.
The RPA will then give you advise as to appropriate precautions. The RPA might also advise you that there is no risk.
Apologies if any of the other responders are RPA's
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Paul and Adrian,
At present I am carrying out a risk assessment, not having dealt with radon before. I am of the oppion that the risk to the operatives is very low, but health survaliance should be carried out at three stages of the six months, start middle and end, by means of blood tests.
As long as we have recorded this as a risk, carried out the survaliance, I think that is all we can do.
This just goes to prove, if you dont know ask, that is why we have this forum not a chat line.
So to conclude. Low risk, health survaliance and monitor.
Thanks for all the input.
Regards
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
John.
I will agree with your observation and ask the Client if they have one.
thanks for your input.
Regards
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Jonathon,
Read this:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.c...gi/reprint/330/7485/223?
Health surveillance is of no use. What would you examine for? The chest x-ray would pose a greater risk than the radon!
Monitoring is a good idea but I would check a radon map to see the estimated level.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Adrian.
Thanks for the info.
The maps and results I have reviewed, and are upto date, the report data you have provided me with is dated, for the UK, 1991 and talks about radon 222, the HSE guidance gives insite into urainum 238 and refers to radon as a daughter.
Like most risk assessments, this is down to the individuals perception, I could look at radon in the same way I would deal with plaster containing animal hair in a pre first world war building, the risk of infection is low, sample testing can not be done, due to the nature of spores, but the risk of spreading of the spores can be greatly reduced through assessmet and good management.
Once the risk has been identified then we must record and manage.
I am erring on the side of caution, but nobody has stated there is no risk, lowered, yes, by working out doors, but still a risk.
As most of the crew somke, then the increase is higher, BMJ conclusion, even if working out doors.We are not nmining it just working on and around it.
Regards
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Posted By Brett Day
Jonathon
I had a site that sounds similar, I spoke to NRPB who were very helpful (as it was we didn't need to go down the health monitoring route).
Brett
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Jonathan
What do you expect to prove with your proposed blood tests?
Paul
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Posted By GeoffB4
Jonathan, you have asked the questions but you are not listening to the answers.
Why?
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Jonathan
Does your proposed health surveillance meet the requirements of the ACoP to Reg 6 of the Management Regs? Particularly, are there valid techniques for detecting indications of the disease or condition which you expect to be produced by the exposure to radon? Also, is there a reasonable likelihood that the disease or condition may occur as a result of the work?
Paul
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Posted By Kevin Drew
Jonathan,
Back to your original and subsequent questions:-
No monitoring is required.
Yes, you are going over the top.
The risk, in the circumstances you describe, is trivially low and can be ignored.
It's radiation protection advisEr not advisOr.
I cannot beleive that this thread has dragged on for so long. Discussion of trivia of this nature is exactly the sort of thing that gives our profession a bad name.
Regards
Kevin Drew
RPA
PS - if you want that formally, in writing, my rates are very high but the content will be the same.
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Dear all.
FYI, I have listened and have taken note of all the advice given. The whole point of this forum is to discuss with persons who have greater knowledge than our own.
So to conclude this thread:
1. A risk assessment has been carried out, now that I am in receipt of the full facts.
2. Health surveillance, this will be advised by our Occ Health dept.
We are of the opinion that the operatives are not in any way at risk.
Therefore we can demonstrate in confidence duty of care under sections 2.2,7&8 & further Reg 3.1.
I would like to thank everybody for their time in this matter.
The End
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Posted By Dave Wilson
No risk at all if out outside lived in Devon for over 30 years and never affected me, wibble, wibble, why are my pants and two pencils stuffed up my nose.
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Posted By Jim Walker
From this recent evidence, can we conclude that exposure to low level doses of Radon gas can induce pathological hatred of CSCS cards?
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