Posted By Robert K Lewis I do not know how many of you have read the papers of the HSC meeting on the 17th October now on the HSE website. But we seem to be finally there warts and all for 2007. Strange thing reading the papers though is the comment in annexe 1 that the naming of specific criteria for competency was an issue which was identified to be discussed in annexe 2. Turn to annexe 2 it is not there. Rather there is a discussion in the area of SME competency which does not relate to the point at all, and is raised under client issues. We are now stuck with the fall out and I can but hope that we at IOSH can pull the thing out of the fire and make it work sensibly. SMEs on small work will not need a co-ordinator, nor will any other job lasting 29 days or less, or 500 person days or less. So that leaves co-ordinators with 30 day plus projects for commercial clients. I do hope will will get rid of any idea very quickly that the co-ordinator is a single individual and that all construction health and safety expertise resides outside of IOSH. Bob

Posted By Michael Battman Quote: "We are now stuck with the fall out and I can but hope that we at IOSH can pull the thing out of the fire and make it work sensibly." IOSH will have little influence on these new Regs. The successful implementation will be down to the construction industry - i.e. ICE; RIBA; etc - and people's willingness to accept the changes and work with them, not against them.

Posted By Dave McIness Robert I do not understand your problem or concern's, there are quite a few of us out here who are corporate members of both IOSH and other professional construction institutions such as the ICE/IStructE/RIBA etc. Please note that I do not include the APS in this. I accept that there are a lot of construction professionals who know very little about H&S, but there again there are a lot of H&S professionals who know very little about construction, and even fewer who could comment on the design process!! There are already to many surveyors running the UK construction industry, lets not make another major mistake.... Dave

Posted By Robert K Lewis Mark According to the acop and CSCS the answer is probably yes. My experience of the industry has always been, and will no doubt continue, eager to use any stated qualification as it means they have ticked the right box. Even if the box is not strictly correct. Bob

Posted By Catman Hi All I believe the 'coordinator'is and should be exactly what it says on the tin. The skill in my opinion is the ability to sit at the table, with all parties, during all stages of the contract, and understand what is being said and the associated implications. Yes knowledge of construction methods is vital, both from drawings and on site but the main skill should be to know who knows the answer, and when to ask. That is the essence of coordination, to bring together and organise the necessary expertise. In that sense the coordinator could be one person, but he/she will have a red hot phone and will spend a lot of time on site asking hard questions of all parties. If that person is a joiner with the construction cert or a university graduate; so long as they have the coordination skill set, attitude and experience, they belong in the role. In my opinion that is where a lot of PS go wrong, (but not all) they are not good at asking the people who may know the answers they dont about site specifics. My point then?, the above posts discuss which current occupational background will be the main source of new CDMC's, my answer - the coordinator will be a new animal in the construction industry that does not really currently exist, development will be required from both the surveyor background and from the practical safety person background to produce the overall coordinator. But to suggest that there will be many that are a consumate expert in all aspects ready to step in and do it all themselves now is folly -leaving us back where we started. For that reason, again in my opinion, this is a positive move for the construction industry which we should welcome (surveyors and practical safety professionals) and work together to ensure it works. Cheers TW

Posted By Michael Battman Bob I agree that CMIOSH is the sort of level for the new Co-ordinator's post....BUT only if combined with experience and competence within the construction industry. CMIOSH gained in, say, the catering or manufacturing industry would NOT be adequate.

Posted By Robert K Lewis I have never said that construction experience is not essential. I think however that CMIOSH are likely to be sidelined in the future. Bob

Posted By Catman Bob The type of person you describe, with the cert but not CMIOSH, is unlikely in a lot of cases to have the (safety) management skills necessary as a coordinator. Yes there are a lot of people with the gen cert out there creating and implementing systems but they are the exception that proves the rule, they should be taking the credit for it by becoming CMIOSH. I mentor an excellent gen cert holder who is a legislative dictionary, but he would tell you himself the 'systems and management' side is where he needs development. It is not just knowing the regs, knowing construction or knowing how to set up systems, it is knowing how to put those skills together and making them work that makes us CMIOSH and will make good coordinators. Therefore I see where you are coming from but would say that in my opinion CMIOSH will not be sidelined, but will become more essential. Hopefully. Cheers TW

Posted By Mark Ellis Hello all, interesting comments, I am actually Tech IOSH and hope one day to become CMIOSH ,but by then I may be deemed overqualified and to expensive to be a "CO" as some suggest. It is true I may not possess the ideal or relevant Qualifications required to say I am competent. but am I a tick in the box? My personal opinion is the construction industry has long way to go and the new regs must be a step in the right direction, it doesn't matter about specific roles or job titles at all, what we should concerned with is a safer place of work. Mark.

Posted By Catman My crystal ball predicts many two employee consulting companies setting up over the next few months......... 1 Chartered surveyor + 1 CMIOSH = bright future.

Posted By Mark Ellis Thanks for that Dave. I've wadded through it and must admit I had gone off track a little with my previous response. That will teach me to do my homework first! I can see you're point now. Mark.

Posted By Sean Nuttall slight spanner in the works here but I would much rather work with a chartered civil or structured engineer who has a H and S qualification (even God forbid a mere certificate; the few I have worked with who have this background have been very competent all rounders) than an "up themselves" engineer who chooses to know little for H and S teamed up with a chartered H and S professional who knows bugger all about building other than what he picked up on his Dip. Experience has shown me that there is a little more to effective H and S management on sites than knowing the spacing between standards on a scaffold Not sure if it is just me but ever since chartered status, the old MIOSH chaps seemed to have got very up themselves and this didn't seem to be the case under the old order. Perhaps its just me ?

Posted By Paul Bellis I know someone with a Managing Safety Cert and NO experience in construction, doing PS work - OH he got his MaPS via correspondence exam (Glad its tightened up now) scary though isnt it. Clients though dont know the difference and just pay the lowest price. Hes doing quite well! Ive been down this competency moaning line before though.... Paul

Posted By Robert K Lewis I still get the feeling that a lot of posters are still seing the co-ordinator as an individual. This actually proves my point that a lot of effort is going to be required. It is not about being precious over chartered status but rather seeing the possible writing on the wall for a chartered H&S professional working in construction. We have to nail the notion of the individual co-ordinator now before the same thing as CDM 1994 happens and much ground id lost. One group regards themselves as the professional body for construction safety already and is absolute in that view. Bob

Posted By Robert K Lewis Advanced The position set out by you is the worst possible option. The role must always be a team with any particular member taking the lead as necessary. Imagine a contractor where Joe Bloggs is the named contractor not the company - It would not work so why should the co-ordinator alone be regarded as an individual? Bob

Posted By Robert K Lewis But this is why the PS role went wrong in CDM 94. Are we to repeat the mistakes? Bob

Posted By AHS I think it went wrong because it was overly complicated and the HSE dont inspect sites enough.