Posted By David Bannister
My view is that both should be considered a confined space on the basis that there is a foreseeable chance for heavier-than-air gases and vapours to accumulate down there and displace the breathable oxygen. Once there they probably have nowhere to go except in to the lungs of the next person in there. CO2 is a particular killer and is most likely from a vehicle exhaust.

Sorry to sound dramatic but CO2 asphyxiation is deadly.

HSE website has very good info on controls.

Posted By Norman T
To be a confined space, the space must be substantially enclosed, and there must be a reasonably foresseable risk of serious injury from hazardous substances or conditions within the space or nearby. (almost direct quote from L101 Safe Work in Confined Spaces)

So just because there is a pit doesn't mean it is a confined space - it might be a confined space sometimes, e.g. if a certain type of work is being carried out there.

So you have to decide whether the space is likely to become dangerous - could it, and why?

Posted By Andy Brazier
People tend to get confused between a confined space and the perceived need for controls. In other words, they avoid defining something as a confined space (when it should be) because the company system says you need a Permit-to-work and that seems to be over the top.

Both examples sound like confined spaces to me. The first one needs to be considered on at least two fronts:
1. How would you get someone out if they fell ill?
2. A hazard may result from the task being performed.

Posted By Pat Hannaway
Hi James,
the inspection pit is almost certainly a confined space. Not only is there a risk of build up of spilled fuels, lubricants etc, but if the pit is in a workshop or close to where vehicles are serviced / tuned, there is a strong possibility of build up of toxic exhaust fumes, Nitrous Oxide / Dioxide, and also (possibly) welding fumes from nearby work.

You can get full details in HS(G)67,Health and Safety in Motor Vehicle repair.

Pat H

Posted By Mark Stewart
James

In relation to your first location. I would class it as a confined space.
As a qualified approved electrician and a health & safety officer I have come across this and actually carried out similar work myself.
You have to remember that concrete is a porous material. May look nice and clean but gas can penetrate it and buildup (possibly causing Asphyxiation). As others quite rightly pointed out, the chances of this are remote but there still is a chance. Also what if something happens to the operatives carrying out the work. Can you treat them normally? (No). Does special rescue techniques / equipment required? (Maybe). All this constitutes the area being a confined space.
Just to clarify, a confined space doesn't necessarily need to be a small volume / area. Example: If a new floor is being lay-ed to a large hall and is being glued down, does that not make the area a confined space (because of the fumes, not the area it is in), even though it is a large area?

Regards

Mark Stewart

Posted By Charley Farley-Trelawney
James

I am certain you will have this, but just in case: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg258.pdf

I apologise if you already have this document but it is always difficult to know the exact background when attempting to answer a question.

The first part identifies an area that one may deduce immediately falls into the category of a CS, although there is the one opening clearly it would seem large enough to enter and egress an both ends, is this two points of escape? What % does the opening form as a % of the total space? With the electrics there are of course issues and reg 3 of the management regs starts to kick in, as does a PTW issue, again I don't what your situation is so am probably teaching you to suck eggs and I apologise for that.

With regards to the pit there is of course a plethora of information available, including the following link from the HSE which again you probably have but I will include it for you anyway. http://www.hse.gov.uk/ri...casestudies/mvrepair.pdf
http://www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/index.htm

Health and Safety in Motor Vehicle Repair HS(G)67 ISBN 0-7176-0483-7 (HSE) - (£5.50) could be of use.

Don't hesitate to come back with further questions.

CFT

Posted By James Midlake
All

Many thanks.

If I say both spaces are confined spaces what are the emergency rescue implications?

In a drain you would have your man on a harness connected to a winch. This would not be very practical in either of my spaces as people need to move about and work ( hold on I sound like the engineering manager!!! ). Would you make breathing apparatus and a winch available, therefore if someone collapsed in the space from causes unknown you would get suited up and go in after them and connect them to the winch?

Midlake

Posted By James Midlake
All

Many thanks to all who have responded.

I am slightly clearer on how to approach this but still confused over rescue arrangements.

The ACOP doesn't help much ( ! )

If ( following risk assessment, gas testing etc ) I allowed work to continue in these spaces how would I recover someone? Remembering that it would not be practical to wear a safety line and harness in these spaces due to the nature of the work?

Midlake

Posted By Andrew Beveridge
Hi James,
If the 'pit' is open across the whole of its top, why will the wearing of a harness be a problem?
The use of a retrieval winch that acts like a seat belt and is 'free running' most of the time would appear to be the solution. This needs to be attached to an appropriate anchorage, which could be a tripod or gantry or any other suitable point. It 'snatches' if there is a fall. If the faller can 'self recover' (ie slipped onto one knee and got back up with no injury) the winch will continue to act in free running mode. If the faller collapsed, the rescue operative on the surface can convert the winch to winding mode and wind the faller out of the hole. (Other procedures in support of this will be needed; constant air monitoring in the hole, trained rescuer, etc, etc.)
We have this system in sucessful operation and I would be happy to discuss it further with you if you think it would help. Please feel free to contact me off forum.
Good luck!
Regards
Andy

Posted By Gwahir
Hi Guys,

I always use this:-

1. Contains or has the potential to contain a hazardous atmosphere;

2. Contains a material that has the potential for engulfing an entrant;

3. Has an internal configuration such that an entrant could become trapped or asphyxiated;
or
4. Contains any other serious safety or health hazard.

Posted By James Midlake
Merv, All

Thanks - I'm with you I think ( ! ).

On both examples I don't think going the whole hog is necessary but I don't have enough experience in this area to feel very comfortable with my decision!

The risk of collapse from lack of oxygen etc I think is very low ( providing engines in the area are turned off ). The risk from the work being conducted is generally low ( providing in the first instance the lock out / tag out is done ). If someone collapses in the pit it will be from causes unknown. What is the best emergency plan to have? Under these circumstances can you simply rely on a call to the emergency services? Is the winch ( or similar ) an absolute requirement?

Midlake

Posted By p winter
here's something to think about - a pub cellar with cylinders of gas confined space?

Posted By p winter
sorry I posted twice

Posted By p winter
Hi John - so the answer is a yes - it is a confined space and because of the CO2 cylinders which could leak there is a foreseeable risk and An appropriate means of controlling the risk is ventilation?

Posted By Adrian Watson
Dear All,

Let's go back to basics:

the confined space regulations 1997 states confined space" means any place, including any chamber, tank, vat, silo, pit, trench, pipe, sewer, flue, well or other similar space in which, by virtue of its enclosed nature, there arises a reasonably foreseeable specified risk; and

"specified risk" means a risk of -

(a) serious injury to any person at work arising from a fire or explosion;

(b) without prejudice to paragraph (a) -

...

(ii) the loss of consciousness or asphyxiation of any person at work arising from gas, fume, vapour or the lack of oxygen;

...

So the simple question is there is (a) serious injury to any person at work arising from a fire or explosion in the pit. If the answer is yes then the Confined space regulations 1997 apply.

If the regulations apply then regulation 4. - (1) states that "No person at work shall enter a confined space to carry out work for any purpose unless it is not reasonably practicable to achieve that purpose without such entry." This effectively bans the use of a vehicle inspection pit if the regulations are deemed to apply.

So the questions are does the pit have:

Means of access and egress?
Is there intrinsically safe lighting and electrics?
Are training leads used?
Are the air powered tools used fed from a pressure line? (no petrol compressors)
Are engines run with persons in the pit?
Is the pit ventilated?
Are fuel spills immediately dealt with?

If the answer is yes then it is not a confined space as there is no reasonably foreseeable specified risk.

Regards Adrian Watson

Posted By p winter
Good posting Adrian - the question I posed about pub cellars was not intended as frivolous. These are enclosed and there is a reasonably forseeable risk of a leak of CO2 (is it a significant risk - probably not, is it reasonably forseeable - it is.)

The reason for my posting is my frustration at others who seem to see confined space risk as opposed to an enclosed space where none exists and this often creates elaborate and sometimes unnecessary precautions. I agree you should not take chances with confined spaces - but suggest we need to be careful defining such a space.

Posted By Jeffrey Watt
P Winter

Cellars? Depends on the cellar.
All our Quality technicians had personal CO2 alarms worn on the waist.
We worked out that in our customers premises that multiple cylinders would have to fail to dilute the atmosphere to a dangerous level, all had louvres for general ventilation.

By the same token two men died in an excavation from CO2 asphyxiation when they dug a trench on brewery premises in England (I will not say which one)No vehicles, no genny running just litres of CO2 in the fabric of the soil from generations of brewing on the site.

No help I know.

Jeff

Posted By David Bannister
It is my understanding that CO2 is generated by combustion of fossil fuels as well as CO, the proportions and quantities depending upon the efficiency of the comnbustion process.

Furthermore, CO2 is particularly dangerous as it not only displaces breathable oxygen but also has acute systemic effects that lead to rapid collapse due to heart failure. That is why old type CO2 flooding systems in computer suites had to be locked off when people were present.

Please don't underestimate the possibility and severity of harm from this source.

Posted By James Midlake
All

I'm still stuck on the rescue.

If I judge the risk as low. If I take gas / oxygen readings. If the access is good. If the ventilation is good. Can I then say that my rescue arrangements are simply to rely on the emergency services?

In short, must I have some way of getting a person out of the space myself.

Midlake

Posted By Pugwash
James
Are you confused by all this? I certainly am! Is there a mention of confined spaces in HSG67? Not that I can find! I think I would be much more concerned that people are going to fall into these pits once you have opened them up than I would be about the likelihood of an unbreathable atmosphere developing.

If these pits are not visited very often, I would open them up, check the air with a gas monitor and then make the assumption that because (1) the air is breathable at the start of the operation and that because (2) the work to be carried out in the pits will not make it unbreathable, there is no foreseeable risk of an unbreathable atmosphere developing and therefore these are not confined spaces for the duration of this work. (Do make sure that the work to be carried out by the engineers will not affect the atmosphere - no welding, cutting, use of chemicals etc). No need for harnesses, no need for rescue arrangements etc etc.