Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Dear Reader.
Quick question, 'is the proposed new co-ordinator role a person or a team?'
Regards

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Adrian.
Thanks, but would the individual have to be a jack of all trades and a know it all at the same time?

Posted By J Knight
Adrian's quite right; this is covered on page 51 of the draft ACOP which goes into some detail about how a multiple 'coordinator' is expected to work,

John

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
I like this reply:

You have hit on a key but potentially sensitive point when you suggest that CDM requires that a competent Co-ordinator will require experience and understanding CDM, construction site experience and a practical understanding of the design process.

When discussing the CDM2007 requirements for a Co-ordinator with some colleagues about 6 months ago, one of the group suggested that I was the only person he knew in the whole of the construction industry who had the necessary site experience, a working knowledge of the design processes and a comprehensive understanding of CDM and associated H&S issues that met the CDM competence criteria for the new Co-ordinator role. He added, however, that as it had taken some 46 years since graduation for me to obtain this breadth of experience, that at the age of 67 I was too _ old to have the necessary energy to meet the rigors and demands of this role.

After some mirth at my expense I said that I had to agree with his summation and that I feared that when CDM2007 is introduced next April that less than 10% of those taking up this role will have the necessary breadth of experience to meet the new competence criteria.

There are a lot of people in the industry with a knowledge of construction activities. There are a lot of people in the industry who have a working knowledge of the design processes and there are a lot of people with a comprehensive understanding of CDM and associated H&S issues but there are very few people in the industry who have the necessary breadth of experience that meets all this criteria.

It is not simply a problem that can be solved by CDM training but also, as you [David B] rightly suggest, years of practical experience on site plus years of experience in the design office before the required Co-ordinator competence criteria will be met.

It may or may not have been easy to draft the requirements for a competent Co-ordinator but I believe it is going to be one hell of a duty on clients to find competent persons that meet this criteria.

I believe I am not far off the mark in suggesting that less than 10% of the demand will be met, yet if I am correct will 90% of clients be breaking the law if they appoint Co-ordinators who do not meet the breadth of experience required.

Or if my judgement is correct does it mean that the construction industry should shrink to 10% of its present activities. We all know that this will not happen and whether my 10% is correct or whether this figure should be 20% or even 30% it is an absolute certainty that there will be a hell of a lot of incompetent CDM Co-ordinators [as measured against the current drafted criteria] operating within the UK for many years.

Food for thought

Regards

I have not included the authors name, but the points that this person has made are very good.

Are the current PS's competent to be Co-ordinators?

Posted By Robert K Lewis
Jonathan

To quote our MPs "I have heard this in another place" ie the CDM discussion forum.

The overarching intention is for an organisation to be the CDMC not an individual. I know the acop talks of possibly individuals for small jobs but then as Arran points out the designer or contractor are best suited to meet the requirements. I think I am becoming very concerned at the Individual as coordinator language that I am hearing. Still as a chartered member of IOSH, a chemical engineer originally, 25 years in construction and with a contractors determination to find solutions I might just be suitable as part of an organisation providing these services.

Personally if I am advising a client concerning the appointment of a coordinator I will recommend very big steps away from those who offer the service as individuals or even those who suggest it is possible to do so.

Bob

Posted By mark limon
As a person who,s only experience of construction is theory it seems to me that there is a case for dividing these duties.They seem to be so complex and wide ranging and there are apparently so few "competent people" about to do them.
Maybe another question should be why is there so few competent people about??
I wonder how these large construction projects get completed,then again,Wembley comes to mind.
To old at 67,never,my Dad is 77 and still as fit as a fiddle.
Mark

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
with that in mind, wembley, will the new olympic projects come under 94 or 07 regs?

Posted By peter gotch
Quote from HSE presentation...

"Simplify competence assessment, reduce
bureaucracy and raise standards"

does this rest easy with prescriptive content of Appendix 4 of draft ACOP.

At Designer Awareness Day yesterday....

One HSE speaker. Keep paperwork down.

Another HSE speaker - you cannot be confident that the contractor will be competent - therefore you need to check that they know the basics, or words to that effect!

Regards, Peter

Posted By peter gotch
Well Jonathan....

One of the slides in my own presentation has the following text

2001 CDM ACOP paragraph 132

“Examples of significant hazards where designers always need to provide information include:

(a) hazards that could cause multiple fatalities to the public, such as….the use of a crane close to …major road”

SURELY, any major civil engineering contractor, doing parallel widening fully understands this!?

this prompted the HSE response about lack of competent contractors!!

Regards, Peter

Posted By Dave McIness
Bob

I think that one of the problems with the team approach is that you always need a consistent approach, and this can only be gained with a single person acting as the coordinator, much in the same way as a lead architect or site manager.

It does not mean that this one person does all the work, but rather that he organises (or dare I say it coordinates) the work of his team.

Furthermore when I fulfill this role, it is more than likely that the team I use are NOT CDM coordinators (yet I am), the team may consist of M&E experts, Structural engineers, geotechnical experts and others, but none of them would include themselves as either a Planning Supervisor, or a CDM Coordinator, so in this instance I am the only Planning Supervisor/CDM Coordinator, I may also have junior PS's/CDM-C's working with me, but this is more of a learning role for their development.

Therefore in these cases, and this can include anything from a demolition project to a £60M underground water treatment works, I am acting as the PS/CDM-C (the company may be named), but effectively, the role is being led by a single individual who calls upon other experts for advice and support as and when required.

Both in this and other threads you state that it can only be done with a team approach, but this is not the case, it can easily be (and I would suggest most often is) done by a single competent individual who has access to other specialists as and when required. Otherwise how else is it to be done, do you expect a team of Planning Supervisors to attend every meeting, now that would be interesting and I suggest very unproductive!!

In my opinion, you need a single competent individual to head up the role of the PS/CDM-C, I have done this very successfully over many years and clients specifically ask for my involvement on projects, though there is only so much work any one person can do.

I may be reading this wrongly, but I therefore find your views and tone to be somewhat limited and condescending, there are after all many ways to skin a cat!

Dave

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
another interesting reply:

I think it comes from this industry.

So often the building trade is down to individuals eg

- the architect may be from a practice, but we tend to have one (or at best two individuals working on a project)

- the same for the QS

- Principal Contractor is represented by his Contract Manager and at site level by the Site Supervisor

- the Client is often a one man developer or often the MD of a company or a delegated representative who is appointed by them to oversee the work.

Typically a project team has individuals who all bring their own expertise to the table. the issue I see with co-ordinator, is that it sounds like an individual - same with Planning Supervisor.

And the construction industry is an autocratic type of industry. Most decisions are not made jointly through consultation, no matter how much HSE would like them to be. I find very different ways of working in my manufacturing clients, where the workforce is encouraged more to rise to the top rather than to do as they are told.

Honestly guys, I came into this industry 12 years ago and was genuinely shocked at the management style which flew in the face of everything I had learned about managing through others and selling the benefits. I had studied human behaviour at university and worked in manufacturing until then, and genuinely believed that we had moved on from an autocratic system to decentralised management. But I have come to accept it as part and parcel of this industry. Indeed in some instances (though not all) it may be the only way we can get things done.

I don't necessarily agree that it is right, but just that it seems to be the way things are here and now in this industry.

And that is why I believe there is a tendency to see roles such as Co-ordinator as being filled by individuals.

Your thoughts please

reply taken from cdm discussion forum hosted by hse

Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Ron.
I agree with you. see my reply to earlier post.
jack of all trades.......
Regards

Posted By Robert K Lewis
David M


But the solution you have outlined is one in which the team is the coordinator with potentially yourself as team leader. That does not make you the coordinator though - You are leading a team which is the coordinator. I know I am arguing semantics here but there are very real issues at the end game. I know of literally no person who can be a skilled temporary works designer and an architect, for instance. The roles, training and experience are grossly different.

The HSE is categoric that only small projects might be able to justify a one man show so to speak. I personally, in spite of my long experience in the industry and plant design, would not seek to fulfill all possible needs of a coordinator. It really is a question of competence. A single person claiming all the skills is going to need very extensive evidence of the competence to justify why and how they have met regulation 4. Without such evidence they are demonstrating non competence.

Let us remember fundamentals of competence - Skillset, Knowledge, Ability, Training, Experience, Attitude and Behaviour, all of these are contained in recent HSE guidance materials. This is a steep ask especially in a project demanding environmental, safety, temporary works design, M&E design, Architectural design, Steel frame design, Electrical design, Control and instrumentation design etc etc.

Bob

Posted By Robert K Lewis
Dave

Your reference to the individual being appointed is where I have a problem. Clients are well used to appointing a person as a contractor and talking to a range of persons but the appointment is of the contracting organisation. Why are they thus not able to talk to a range of individuals from the coordinating organisation?

The issue arises because somehow we wish to make the coordinator into a construction profession just as has been attempted with the PS role. By the constant effort to identify an individual as the coordinator the boundaries and understandings are blurred. Coordination is a professional service supplied by organisations to a construction client. The organisation could be, as Arran stated, a contractor, a designer or even the client himself but always a team drawn from the organisations resources led by a "project manager" for the task.

Bob