Posted By cara Have a look one of my previous postings entitled 'traffic cops' - I know this is really based on mobiles and driving risks but RBW is putting together a "no phones" policy and perhaps you could discuss this with him??

Posted By Andy Brazier Joe Can you explain why you think there is a case to ban mobile phones from a H&S perspective. I can see they may be a distraction, but so are many other things (including land-line phones).

Posted By DP Surly a risk assessment taking into account working activates and associated hazards would identify any issues that would lead to a potential ban.

Posted By martin gray1 Hi Joe I agree with a previous posting it is a HR matter more than a HS issue. The way I see it is you are paying them to work not talk on the phone. The only time I relax the ban is when a guy's wife may be expecting or he is awaiting an emergency call. They know the rules and come and explain the situation to me and we agree on the time frame. It works perfectly well but like all rules it needs to be consistent and fair across the whole workforce. Martin

Posted By Darren J Fraser From a H&S point of view, if your workplace comes under DSEAR, then as the phone contains a potential ignition source (the battery) you can quite justifiably ban them, unless they can prove that the phone is intrinsically safe, whilst these are available, they cost several hundreds of pounds and look like a small brick, your typical mobile phone is not, that is why they along with car phones are banned on petrol forecourts.

Posted By Darren J Fraser The batteries in vehicles are connected by a solid connection (2 leads) that are unable to provide a spark, unless they are not tightened up correctly and are loose. The spark plug is contained within the engine block and therefore unable to provide a source of ignition on a forecourt. Mobile phones and other such items, do not have a fixed connection, and therefore there is an increased risk (only slightly) of a spark being generated. Electrical equipment is prone to the build up of static electricity (another ignition source) To give a common example, that everyone can relate to, you have a gas leak in your kitchen during the night (explosive atmosphere), you turn the light switch on or off (ignition source) resulting in the increased risk of an explosion, this is the reason why the gas board states that in the event of a gas leak electrical switches are left in the position that they are found in. Whilst this may be a very simple explanation, and I am sure that more qualified persons than myself will be able to explain in more technical detail, I hope it clears up any confusion as to my view.

Posted By Andy Brazier With all due respect, some wrong trees may be being barked up here. It is absolutely correct that mobile phones are potential sources of ignition and controlled under DSEAR. However, I doubt you can get an intrinsically safe mobile phone, but you can get them certified for use in certain flammable hazardous areas. This means they are built in such a way that the likelihood of them acting as an ignition source, when compared with the likelihood that a flammable atmosphere is present, gives a tolerable risk. Now I am sure it is an urban myth that mobile phones have caused fires at petrol stations. But this is not at all relevant to the above discussion. I am not fully up to speed with regard to DSEAR at petrol stations, but I understand that when filling your car there is a very small flammable atmosphere formed around the filling location. Cars are definitely potential ignition sources. Simply the heat from the engine may be enough. Also, the potential for fuel to enter the engine via the air inlet can cause major problems, especially in diesel engines as they cannot then be stopped. The difference between the car and the mobile phone is that the car engine is off whilst there is the potential for a flammable atmosphere. If you are talking on your phone whilst filling or even walking past there is a possibility (all be it very small) of ignition. But, if DSEAR is not an issue, is a mobile phone really a big enough distraction to cause a ban on H&S grounds? I can understand some rules backed up with supervision, but a total ban sounds like another example of where H&S will be seen as going over the top.

Posted By Chris G I was told by my business HS&E manager that the phones on forecourts issue came from the USA. I've not verified this but apparently in the USA petrol pump hoses are not required to be earth bonded (unlike in the UK) giving a higher likelihood of static discharge with any piece of electrical kit. Also re car engines being turned off while filling up. Next time I visit the forecourt I'll shut down the engine & coast the last 100 yards or so and also get all those queuing to turn off too. I'm sure there must be recorded occasions when cars have caused fires on a forecourt. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority would be traceable to vehicle faults. Chris

Posted By Dan Lee Hello All, Am a new member of IOSH so treat me gently. Find the discussion forums very enlightening- for all sorts of reasons. My contribution: They say that pictures speak a thousand words so please check out the small video clip at the following web page. http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/3325 (If you have trouble accessing the site - use the website's main page, enter 'Gas Station' into the search engine and the clip appears. The clip shows a gas station and a small fire ignited by static electricty from a person's fleece type sweater. The fumes that are ignited are the residual fumes from around the fuel inlet. The fire is not serious but it does prove that a small amount of electricity does present a fire risk - albeit a small one. This was an American gas station forecourt so the member's commments about unearthed hoses may be valid here. As a health and safety trainer I use this as a simple example to point out the nature of hazards and risks that we all take for granted. The mobile phone issue is raised in the H&S management training that we do. The mobile phone is seen as a vital management tool, therefore we train people to conduct their own risk assessment prior to using it in a work environment, if the use of it would present an unacceptable degree of risk then don't use it. Banning them on security grounds is an excellent option - many warehouses do just this as experience has shown that the camera phones can be used to transmit images of high-value goods and customer details etc. Good discuson - a wide variety of viewpoints each with its own piece of validity. Dan

Posted By Merv Newman Sorry, that was meant to be "Dan, welcome to the show" Merv

Posted By Pete48 Nice video. America, early evening. Ambient temp? humidity? wind velocity zero or low? Notice the lady is adjusting her top (man made fibres?) as she exits the car where she has been sitting whilst the auto feed ( she doesn't need to hold open the valve) fills up her car. The bell has rung and she is now either going to take the hose out or just top out the last little bit because the auto fill never quite fills it up. She takes only one or two steps continually adjusting her clothing quite vigorously right up to the moment when she reaches out to touch the feed hose and that is clearly at a different potential as you can see the ignition discharge from her to the pipe. Compare this filling method and design of feed pipe to those that you see every day and note the differences. For one, in the UK, you have to hold the hose in order to keep the valve open to fill up. Also for those that believe that products like petrol blow up or cause huge conflagrations; note what happened in this case and consider for a moment the science that you witness. I also found the actions of this woman intriguing. I just love the little puff she tries to blow out the fire before deciding to remove the hose. I guess she took out the hose because she didn't want her car damaged by the fire thinking the fire was "in the hose". She also thoughtfully tried to put out the flame in the hose leaning down to see clearly before carefully laying it down away from her car. Human nature eh? Common sense?? As to the mobile phone in petrol station matter, put yourself in the position of the owner or the large multi-national oil company. If there is any risk of a mobile phone causing a fire, even if it is smaller than 3/5ths of 5/8ths of very little, would you take it? Say it is one in a 100 billion? Acceptable risk? Why take it? The science is almost irrelevant.

Posted By TBC They are still not banned anywhere - look around - driving FLTs, lorries and cars on the roads in petrol stations. There is no real ban for the idiots anyway. Three points and sixty pounds - not enough!

Posted By Crim This reinforces my contribution to another thread re static electricity. I read some years ago in the Fire magazine, about a lady who went to the toilet and while adjusting her tights a static spark was created that ingited the methane gas inside the toilet pan. The explosion blew the lady across the toilet cubicle and caused superficial burns. For what it's worth I think the use on mobile phones can be downright rude. Especially when involved in a conversation/meeting etc. when somebody receives a call and answers it immediately. On top of that they talk out loud on the hands free so everybody within earshot can listen in to their half of the conversation and are unable to continue the meeting until the conversation had concluded. (Rant over).

Posted By Peter Leese Hi Crim Could you reference the item on tights please - a date/month would do and exact title of the magazine. Thanks

Posted By Peter Leese I've tried googling 'tights, toilet explosion'!!

Posted By Peter Leese Fire Magazine seems to still exist http://www.fire-magazine.com/ but I can't see an archive facility