Posted By holmezy
Hi All
Could anyone help me with my quest to change the attitudes of a couple of Managers/Supervisors. They seem to think that H+S doesnt give them any responsibilities and if "someone has an accident, its nothing to do with me" despite them being the ones that showed the employee all the shortcuts, bad practises etc in the first place. Also, they think that if they dont see it, or they are on holiday or arrange to be off site, then its nothing to do with them. Before I loose all patience and start quoting regs etc (which wont work anyway) I want to "try and gently twist their arms", so to speak. Has anyone got any stuff I could use, docs, guidance, poerpoints etc? Also, the consequencies of not doing something etc? The little bits I've found on HSE website dont seem to fit and enevitably quote regs etc

thanks in advance

Holmezy

Posted By Salus
Hi Holmezy,

if you have a H & S policy, do you not have an organisational chart which would identify job description responsibilities and accountability.

this is one way of making them aware of their responsibilities

Just do your job, you cannot change everyone, if they cannot do theirs make them aware of what they should be doing regarding H & S. How this will benefit the company and what could happen if something goes bluetits up.

I think H & S personnel spend far to much time trying to get people "on board".

You could make their managers aware of the consequences as well, but a bit like
"grassing them up", sometimes you have to do it.
If you want to be in the firing line, don't do anything just keep on at them as you have been.

Posted By Ian G Hutchings
Blimey Holmezy!

Absolute can of worms this one!

I am afraid the news is that (I think) you cannot change them. They have to change their own outlooks. The best ways to do this? I believe are:

- has to come via the top person;
- get someone independent in to do a review and let them know the truth (yes, Holmezy was right all along!);

This has to be a journey to make them feel totally uncomfortable with the present situation. Things to try (if you can't bring in someone else to persuade) include; cost benefit, case study of personal and business impacts (accidents seriously screw up companies as well as people), also what benefits there will be in personal and financial terms if they manage safety well. How do you compare with the competition? Can you get a client in to tell them what they expect?

Lots of ideas here, but I'd really need to know more about the company, size, industry etc.


Cheers

Ian

Posted By Andrew Cartridge
Holmezy

Dead simple (no pun intended)


Just remind tell them that:

"Safety is a management RESPONSIBILITY with guidance from experts"



Andy

Posted By Scott Fisher
Holmezy,

I sympathise with you fully. I have recently started work within a construction based service that has had no H&S for many years. It is a very steep hill to climb, but it will get easier once people start to realise that H&S is not going to go away.

As our role is mainly advisory and we can not force management to implement changes, I would recommend that you ensure you have all your recommendations to management in writing and explain the consequences of not taking the relevant action required. That way if something does happen you can evidence that you have highlighted the issue. Good Luck

Posted By Merv Newman
Holmzy

advice I have been offering to managers and H&S people over the past couple of years is to "keep an H&S diary".

Regularly note down what you have done, said, observed. You will most certainly need it in court one day.

From my days (years !) with Du Pont, the safety policy had 10 points (which I can still quote)

1. ALL accidents are preventable

2. Management is responsible for the prevention of accidents.

I won't continue to bore you but this is the religion of a company which really does have very few accidents.

What does your company policy say ? What do your senior management say ? Is safety responsibility included in the mission statement of each manager ? Are managers evaluated on the safety results of their departments ?

Do they know that THEY could go to jail ?

And the Outtakes stuff is very good.

Blast. I can't remember the title but they have one with a Du Pont Northern Ireland site manager talking about safety. Worth a borrow. Or even a buy.

Merv

Posted By holmezy


Thanks everyone for the comments, I think the general gist is what I have already realised. The manager in question is going to be a hard, if not impossible nut to crack!!

Think I'll purchase the outakes stuff, on the company credit card of course.

For those who want an example of the response I get from this particular gut;

We have a stock yard into which various size lorries and flat beds reverse in due to it not being able to be "one way". Over theyears the lorry drivers (haulage company drivers....not our own) have become a bit to familiar and almost race each other to get to the loading area. Sometimes there can be 4 or 5 lorries waiting to be loaded, add to this forklifts, people, members of the public etc. At present we have no banksmen!!

I spoke (quite nicely) to the yard manager and requested that he limit the number of lorries to 2 at any one time, asking the rest to wait in a holding area. The yard staff should fetch the required lorry, and although untrained, should guide the lorries to the loading area.
Any small loads should be carried by the forklift to the lorry rather than the lorry reversing all the way down the yard to the store. I explained whys and wherefore re keeping people apart and although I realised the situation was not perfect, I will get banksmen trained etc and could he help me to make the yard safer.

"Whatever you want" was the sarcastic response.

10 minutes later a lorry reverses all the way down the yard, watched from the office by the manager.

Went to speak to him, asking if he understood why we needed to change.
His response was;

" not my problem. I cant watch the yard all day long. If they want to reverse then thats up to them. Its up to our folk to keep out of the way. If I'm up here, I cant be responsible for any accident. Nothing to do with me. If you want to direct traffic all day then thats up to you. Not got time".

Still calm, I asked him why he thought that it was nothing to do with him.

"Just cuz the lads in the yard work for me, doesnt make them my responsibility. I cant be held responsible in they get squashed by a lorry. I've told them NOT to get squashed, what more can I do. Nothing to do with me......now let me get on with my job" (at which point he continued browsing the internet for last minute holidays!!)"

The rant then continued on and on. I decided that it was probably best not to continue with the methods of persuassion on the grounds that I value my own H+S.

Anyway, had a few beers and feel relaxed now, ready to pick up the gauntlet again tomorrow.


Ted,

about time we had a bit of fishing. I'll bring some beer and a bag of worms!!

Happy days!!

Thanks again for all the advice etc.

Posted By Merv Newman
Holmezy,

outtakes are nice people. I think they may let you preview a video. Afterwards you can use their ideas (with retribution (or is that attribution ?))

Obviously they would like you to buy but, I repeat, they are good people with good ideas. What do they charge for a video, £400 ?

worth every centime if it saves you an accident.

And our company, International Safety, has no commercial lien with Outtakes. Unfortunately.

Merv

Posted By Pete48
H,
you have mail

pete48

Posted By Kieran J Duignan
Holmes, Sherlock and others

The root problem underlying the issue you raise is the quality of management development.

What you are describing indicates a failure in this area.

Repertory grids can be used to incisively reveal development needs. If you want to use them with managers, best to start with the directors, specifically the managing director. Skilful uses of these tools reveal how the business can profit through safety and not merely comply with laws and regulations that are comfortably perceives as an imposition.

Yyou can read how in'Introduction to The Repertory Grid Interview', M Fromm, Waxmann, 2004.

Or involve a safety practitioner experienced in this way of influencing cost-effectively.

Posted By Glyn Atkinson
or even - anonymous !!

Reminder - press spell check !!

DOH !!

Posted By Paul
I would appreciate a copy of the poem if that would be possibe?

Cheers,

Posted By Chris. R.
Paul,

You have mail