Posted By Simon Walsh Grad IOSH I think you have hit upon the point yourself, if someone is determined to harm themselves they will find a way of doing it. To remove the crash barrier itself would, in my view be the wrong thing to do, as if a vehicle hit the concrete it could cause the concrete to break and fall to innocent people below.

Posted By Linda Westrupp Dear Both Thanks for your responses they are very useful. Holmesy - why is beer still in hand, shouldn't it be in digestive system by now? Good fishing Linda

Posted By Linda Westrupp MetalMan This is a serious discussion as we are a local authority. The local health trust are asking us to help in reducing the risk of suicide within the general area and multi-storey car parks are an obvious target. I agree that some things are getting out of hand but there have been coroners inquests which have criticised authorities for making things too easy. I hope this helps clarify the reasons why we are looking at this issue. Linda p.s. Holmezy - hope you've had a bite by now!

Posted By holmezy Thanks for your concerns. Perhaps my laptop is 240v and I have joined numerous extension cables together so as to reach the riverbank? When I say I'm by the riverbank, its not strictly true. Same with the beer....but it is Friday, and I have started to drift off somewhat into weekend mode. Oh, and I hate fishing!

Posted By Merv Newman linda, wihile the frequency may not be high, the outcome is very certain. many high buildings do install precautions, especially if they are famous institutions (empire state, anyone ?) or very easily accessible - like a drive-in car park. Apart from closing the openings with wire grilles, which would be very expensive to install and maintain, I can only think of safety nets at the lowest level. I think the probable trajectory would terminate very close to the foot of the building, so maybe somewhere between 1 and 2 meters in width (any experts out there ? I'm sure some people in the emergency services will have seen the results. No photos, please) You would have to be carefull about the nettings coefficient of elasticity. We don't want to attract reverse bungee jumpers, do we ? Merv

Posted By MetalMan Hi Linda, I kind of guessed that this was driven by someone other than yourself. My point is that these organisations expect the avarage H+S bod to come up with these solutions to cover there own rear ends no matter how remote the risk is. Now, while even I can see the sense in maybe taking basic precautions to ensure the suicide risk is lowered, it is pretty rich to ask you to look at your car park when there are a million and one other ways to kill yourself. All of our factory machine are guarded and interlocked, but if someone really wanted to lose a hand in one they would be able to find a way I'm sure. I am just getting increasingly frustrated by organisations motivated by self preservation expecting us to wrap the world up in cotton wool so no one gets hurt, in the meantime we get plastered all over the papers for instigating it all in the first place.

Posted By Merv Newman Metalman, while I tend to agree with you, remember that our bosses expect us to come up with the solution to a problem they think they have detected. Or a good justification for doing nothing. They pay the money so they expect us to sweat a bit and prove we are geniuses. I think Linda has found herself in a bit of a quandary, perhaps leaning towards your quite valid point of view, and is trying to get a general overview of expert opinion, so as to eventually build her case, one way or the other. How could you help her to make the case for adopting your point of view ? Merv

Posted By Bob Shillabeer HI everybody, A serious subject this one and one of general interest to the public at large. Suicide is a very difficult thing to manage and counter. Those who attempt to commit suicide are very determined if ill people; dealt with a few over the years not a pretty sight and very sad. Who knows what drives people to such desperate action (it's not just money or emotional things but much more likely to be a mental health problem). This is an issue that has dogged the rail industry for years, cost millions of pounds and countles minutes of delay. What is the answer? Well no one really knows but it is not down to individual organisations to manage the risk out partly because it is some what unpredictable. One organisation that has done enormous research into this is the Rail Safety & Standards Board and it is worth looking at their website - www.rssb.co.uk. By the way have you considered erecting mesh grills between the top of the wall and the ceiling to prevent anyone getting over the top and of course dropping anything onto people below. Bob.

Posted By Red Ones It may be worth considering the effect of installing precautions on the suicidee (new word there I think!) If the local Health trust is driving the initiative, then they should consider the effect of reducing the level of suicides at your premises. My naive local view it that by making it more difficult to jump from a MSCP you are going to displace the problem; the result could be more people jumping from bridges into the path of oncoming traffic. this would increase the number of injuries, and consequently the risk. If you consider the wider perspective you could be making matters worse. I am sure that suicidees do not think "Oh well, the Car Park is too safe nowadys, so I won't kill myself"

Posted By Bob Shillabeer To return to my posting of earlier. I had the task some time ago of looking at the coroner's reports on a large number of suicides on the railway. Most if not all held a very sad story from the loss of a loved one to serious mental health problems caused unfortunately in some cases by drug abuse, cruelty by someone else and sexual abuse. Each acse had serious abd worrying theme. One in particular I recall is one of a man who became an alcoholic after his previously successful business went to the wall who drove his car to the local station lay down on the platform ramp and was decaoitated by a train pasing the station at over 100 mile an hour. That was the suicide but there was an even more frightening end to this tale. The police were dealing with the incident when the next train arrived and off got a woman who then saw the dead man's car and stood by it waiting for you've guessed it her husband. It shows very graphically that suicide is a major tradegy for those left behind and a problem for society. Take what precautions you can to reduce the opportunity for a suicidal person to act in this way by all means but it's society in general who need to press for better mental health and easier acces to financial support/advise than putting anti suicide defences simple because we don't want it on our patch.

Posted By MetalMan Hi Merv only just read your comment on returning to work. How would I convince her? Right, I would point out the thousands of miles of unprotected railway track and station platforms in the country, the thousands of miles of roads unprotected, the thousands of unprotected bridges and buildings, the hundreds of thousands of trees with branches sturdy enough to hang a rope over, need I go on? Like a previous poster has mentioned, that if local authorities correctly identified these people and helped them in the first place instead of trying to shift the emphasis over to the H+S side of things Linda would not be asked to look at the problem in the first place.Now while I appreciate in a caring society we need to be aware of these problems and take basic precautions, surely there is only so far you can go before you wonder why?, and for whose benefit you are risk assessing for?.

Posted By Garry Linda One possible alternative to the crash barrier may be to affix a ‘Stop’, or raised area, an inch or so in height, directly to the floor. As the vehicle is driven in to the space the tyres would come against the ‘stop’ prior to the vehicle striking the wall. This is used in a local MSCP and consists of an inverted length of angle iron secured to the floor. Good luck anyway. Garry