Posted By Crim Section 10 in Part 2 of the Control of Asbestos Regs 2006 requires training to be given to those employees who are or who are liable to be exposed etc. etc. etc. Is this the section that requires all shop fitting workers to receive that training or is it mentioned elswehere in the Regs? We have discussed this at some length recently and I suggest that not all shop fitters need to be trained as they do not start out expecting to be exposed to asbestos even though they sometimes do come across it?

Posted By Crim Jon, You pose an interesting point but my kids will not cross the road on their own until they are considered to be old enough to make the right judgement. I agree that this means they will encounter cars at some stage in their lives. My point is that the Regs do not REQUIRE the training for every construction worker as nowadays there is a pre construction asbestos survey and where asbestos is present it is either, left alone, made safe or removed before our lads go in. I pose my question as I intend to discuss this with a Client who is loathe to spend on anything unnecessary and who will ask me the same question?

Posted By Adrian Watson Yes they do! The regs require training for all persons commensurate with the degree and potential for exposure; asbestos strippers at one end - general workers the other! Regards Adrian Watson

Posted By Danny O'Donnell Crim, Regulation 10(1) states: "Every employer shall ensure that adequate information, instruction and training is given to those of his employees— (a) who are or who are liable to be exposed to asbestos, or who supervise such employees, (b) who carry out work in connection with the employer’s duties under these Regulations, so that they can carry out that work effectively" The ACOP (L143) expands on the training requirement as follows: "Asbestos awareness training is required to be given to employees whose work could foreseeably expose them to asbestos. In particular, it should be given to all demolition workers and those workers in the refurbishment, maintenance and allied trades where it is foreseeable that their work will disturb the fabric of the building because ACMs may become exposed during their work. Exemption from this requirement would apply only where the employer can demonstrate that work will only be carried out in or on buildings free of ACMs. This information should be available in the client’s asbestos management plan." Regards, Danny

Posted By Bob Youel you seem to be trying to play games? - sorry if I am wrong - - try arguing in a court that training was not needed re asbestos even where you knew that workers come across it training needs to be adequate - you can decide on the 'adequacy' via your risk assessment

Posted By Crim Bob, Not playing games - some people do that on this forum but not me. It's that my Client will ask me to show him where it states that training is required, and quite right too because it's his money I'm trying to spend! Do you believe everything you hear from people or do you endevour to confirm what they say? I hear what you say about the Court but has this ever come up in court yet? Thanks for your interest everyone.

Posted By Robert K Lewis Crim The non-existence of asbestos has to be demonstrated in a positive sense by the person who is the duty holder. Thus the register in itself is not evidential that there is no asbestos in the location you are working even if it is not listed in the register. Such records are a guidance only in many ways. They show what can be seen and only type 3 surveys can give a relatively high degree of comfort. Even then if a building has had asbestos removed there is a potential for something to be missed hence a need for awareness training. The meaning of liable is more an evaluation of forseeability - If a premise is not certified as asbestos free in some way then any person opening up plant, equipment or intrusively working on the building fabric has a forseeable potential to encounter asbestos. In the training programme I provide for this you are essentially looking at a one day session. The HSE estimate 1.4 million workers will need training!!!! I think that very soon the colleges and training companies for construction operatives will need to include this in the initial training, but even then we must not forget the regular re-certification requirements. Bob I do advise against in-house unless you are really experienced and can demonstrate competence in the work

Posted By Al Beevers Dave, I would be very uncomfortable in not training staff who work in 'new build'. This isn't a guarantee of no asbestos. A client we service has a building completed in 2003. One '1950's diner style' canteen was fitted out with 'vintage style' catering equipment. Which was all asbestos lined. Every person in the building maintenance industry needs training until all the asbestos is removed from the UK. So forever. Al.

Posted By JPK Hi All, I think that aswell as looking at the CAR 2006, we should think along the lines of duty of care to our employees and others. Although a survey may have been carried out, it may be Type 1/2 which although will be as comprehensive as possible, may not identify all ACM's. This will be highlighted in the Pre-lims of ANY survey. We would like to think that it is unnecessary for all persons to be trained to this as a survey would identify the ACM's but it is just not feasible. I have advised and succeeded in arranging AAW & Small works training, for the safe incapsulation of the area containing discovered ACM's, for all employees that would possibly come into contact. That range is from... Carpenters, that may remove doors, windows joists (previously holding AIB) etc. Plumbers, for obvious reasons (heat mats, pipe lagging) etc. Decorators, again for obvious reasons (artex, textured coatings behind over boarded ceilings) Floor layers, that may come in contact with Thermo plastic tiles or bitumen adhesive. Demo, Labourers, plasterers etc etc... This list goes on, but ultimately I get calls from the site, advising that a 'possible' ACM has been identified, to which we arrange sampling and analysis of the material. I personally feel at ease knowing my guys are confident to stop when they are not sure.

Posted By ddraigice I agree with Dave. In essence that is true. Also any safety policy should say: "We agree only to work on new build premises and if a lucrative contract comes up for a major client on a premises that was built before 2000, we agree to pass it to our competitors".

Posted By JPK Sorry guys... I was replying directly to the post RE: Shop fitters! I dont agree that for Brickies in that instance is necessary!

Posted By Crim What an excellent dabate! I am almost convinced but need a copy of the ACOP. Please can somebody give a web address for me to get a hard copy. By the way, thanks to all of you for showing the way forward. Chris

Posted By Crim Thanks Dave and all, I'll take it from here.