Posted By ElizabethL Did anyone see the article in this months SHP concerning the certificate of commendation given to the HSE inspector who successfully managed to prosecute a large photographic print shop. He achieved a record fine under COSHH regs? Hmmm... Its great to see the old boy network still going strong, whether it be in the form of politicians and Lords making the Corporate manslaughter bill essentially a 'toothless tiger', just in case one of their friends who make such large donations should fall foul of it. Now you have an HSE inspector being rewarded for swelling the courts coffers with a commendation, an accolade that will no doubt benefit him enormously in his career. The case itself and the occupational illnesses suffered by the employees was inexcusable and the team in question done an excellent job. I just believe that inspectors have to remain totally unbiased and impartial. I fear that these kind of incentives are open to abuse by those wishing to make a name for themselves because, as in all walks of life their are good and bad representatives. When I think of commendations, I think of a police officer who has risked his own life to save another's, which is an incorruptible situation, unless it transpired to be a lie, in which case it would pretty much be a victimless porky. I don't think of an an HSE inspector securing a successful prosecution and record fine, which is in theory at least a corruptible situation. I mean do police officers get commendations for that too? In reality I believe that because so much H&S law is based on an individuals, or more importantly an HSE or EHO's own opinion, that there is not a single employer within the U.K that can say wholeheartedly in complete at utter confidence that they will never be prosecuted. This is simply because in the back of their mind those dreaded words ring 'yes ma lord it is the HSE's opinion that the defendants risk assessments was in no way suitable or sufficient.' The inspectors only incentive should be that his direct superiors know that he has done a good job and that his/her job description is to protect the public at large. What's next a successful prosecution related bonus scheme? Elizabeth.

Posted By ElizabethL Spoken like a true EHO Andrew!! (I Suspect?) Elizabeth

Posted By ElizabethL I merely suggested from Andrews response that I suspect him to be employed as an EHO and nothing of a derogatory nature was mentioned, unless of course you would consider that challenge to be an insult CRT? My thread was not a criticism of any inspecting authority but rather the incentives being offered. Elizabeth

Posted By Pugwash Point well made Elizabeth. I felt uneasy when I read the bit about this in the mag but thought no more about it and moved on. I read your piece and then read the article again. I still feel uneasy about it and have given some thought as to why that might be. Perhaps it is because, like it or not, there is a pretty massive "them and us" gulf between the enforcers and the practitioners. Maybe some (or even many) of us do not actually like "them" very much. After all, if any of them take enforcement action against a company where one of "us" is the practitioner, it is a criticism (actual or implied) of the abilities of one of "us". It would be good if it were not like this but sadly I think it often is. Depressing isn't it. Someone persuade me I have got it wrong.

Posted By MT "I fear that these kind of incentives are open to abuse by those wishing to make a name for themselves because, as in all walks of life their are good and bad representatives." How so? Is it your belief that the justice system and for that matter enforcement officers are so corrupt that prosecutions can be brought without sufficient evidence? Surely prosecutions are only successful where the weight of evidence is against the defendant, therefore any attempt by an enforcement officer to invent a case in order to "make a name for themselves" would fail.

Posted By Salus the sad thing is on a previous page an individual was fined £15000 and this included costs, for the death of a non employee (although the the person was working for him) Have not looked yet but am interested in how the judge came to the conclusion that the deceased was not an employee.

Posted By terry mallard ps not all safety regulators ( LA) side are EHOs........ me included

Posted By ElizabethL I apologise if my thread was misunderstood and as a result caused offence. It was merely meant as a debate on incentives possibly being offered to HSE or LA Inspectors, who are as surely corruptible as the next person and no doubt keen to impress there employer? Now if I had been having a go at enforcing inspectors, I would have said that maybe I don't like it when an EHO comes into my business and tells me that I must produce a risk assessment for an employee putting their finger in a gap between a door and a frame and crushing said finger, because its a significant risk (even though it never happened before in 10 years). Maybe I even resent the fact that they look more and more these days like they just turned 18, but adopt an aloof attitude of knowing everything in all industries, except of course when you ask advice or challenge them, when they fall behind 'It is not our responsibility, but yours to risk assess and control'. Oh, Yes and the fact that L.A's have so many prosecutions on the HSE website, so fail to practice what they preach and should maybe concentrate on their own back yard more? I don't dislike all inspectors honest!!! Just the goosestepping ones! Oh dear, that was not politically correct was it.....Stand aside Jade Goody... Elizabeth

Posted By ElizabethL Andrew shouldn't you be out hassling a kebab shop owner or something, as opposed to spending all your time on the internet... you naughty boy :-) Elizabeth

Posted By ElizabethL I think Mr Morris is sharp enough to interpret my comments for what they where, which was tongue in cheek, although a real scenario. I think a bit of lively banter between 'them and us' is harmless enough and helps prevent us all from turning into those conker & duck pond kill joys that the red tops so inaccurately describe us as,....don't they? Elizabeth

Posted By John Watson Nothing (constructive at least) to add to the debate other than FANTASTIC! Given me a great laugh today, Elizabeth my goodness you are feisty, god forbid your EHO ever pays a visit! Regards John

Posted By Barny There may be a wider discussion point to consider before this debate runs it's course. For example how do we think the CBI and other business leader and focus groups would see this commendation? and is it important? Considering an enraged safety professional is one thing what about a boss that gives up because having read the article they now feel they can't win whatever they do. Is this not something completely different and maybe more dangerous? As with all articles editors privilage dictates the whole truth is never available and it is entirely possible that the judge may have actually being having a dig at other enforcement officers whose cases he presides over - from the basis they don't carry out thorough investigations and leave it to the courts, or their evidence is not well presented who knows - I would suggest it's also not that important. What is important is the perception, any number are possible, the responses to this thread support that and given that our jobs are only possible with the support (albeit in some cases begrudgingly) of those we work for, surely there is a case for considering their view? I would also suggest that it is not in the interests of the HSE / EHO or the Courts to be seen to reward anyone for a successful prosecution if for the only reason that if a case has had to be prosecuted then all other measures aimed at prevention have failed. Not something to be that proud of. For what it's worth I think it helps sometimes to get the real issues out in the open, Elizabeth shouldn't be villified for that especially as she appears to be willing to except her view will be challenged also quite rightly. I hope that this forum is more willing to raise real issues after all if we don't who will.

Posted By andrew morris I think (hopefully) Elizabeth and I sort of see eye to eye, from opposite sides of the fence, in a round about, working together sort-of-way. I think the original point she made is correct, regulators shouldn't be given prizes and incentives for prosecuting. But what everyone has to realise, and there is a huge misconception out there (engineered, I'll admit, by some less than competant colleagues)that HSE inspectors and EHO's will prosecute for the sheer enjoyment and pleasure of it. We don't. I have worked for different authorities, some who are more likely to prosecute and those that lack the constitution to do it, but even in the most aggressive authorities, prosecutions are only mounted in serious case which are in the public interest, etc. etc.. We then have to satisfy a COMPLETELY independant judge who would just as happily publicise us as incompetant as they would commend us. I would like to know whether the same level of responses would be generated if an inspector was slung out of court for not doing a thorough inspection. And, if business leaders do not like people being commended (without financial incentives, etc. ) then perhaps they should reconsider bonuses within their own company - why is it an issue when someone is praised for doing a good job. Please if you read nothing else and think about it: NO MONEY CHANGED HANDS! NO PROMOTIONS WERE GIVEN BECAUSE OF IT! NO BONUSES ARE GIVEN!!! WHY IS IT AN ISSUE BECAUSE SOMEONE WAS PRAISED FOR DOING A GOOD JOB! or maybe it is because no one else out there has ever been praised so they think no one else should be.... jealous maybe, of all of us highly paid, generously bonused, prosecution pay related inspectors. Oooo. I've just got a chipped finger nail in, I better go and prosecute - I need a new ferrari! Anyway, do I look bovered? (in my squeeky teenage voice) ;-) Is this thread ever going to end!!!!

Posted By ITK CMIOSH Moderators does this thread breach AUG 4.

Posted By ElizabethL I would trust that the moderators are intelligent enough and in favour of a bit of lively debate on some other H&S issues other than 'should I report this under RIDDOR or not?' without actually realising that they just did, because of all the EHO's that use this site! If not, I won't be back for one. I shall start my own H&S discussion forum in competition and be damned!!! Elizabeth.

Posted By ElizabethL 'Moderators does this thread breach AUG 4.' Its comments like that made against fun such as this, that stereotypes all of us in the H&S profession!!!!! Elizabeth

Posted By TBC Could have done with that inspector in Scarborough a while back, when I couldn't get hold of anyone to respond. HSE or EHO - not my area! Maybe the 'bonus' wouldn't be enough.

Posted By db Elizabeth, I think you seriously misunderstand the process of investigation and any resulting prosecution.... not to mention the kind of person it takes to be an enforcement officer (OK I used to be one so there is some bias!). They are generally not publicity grabbing wannabees. One of the main reasons for any prosecution after the obvious penalty to the company is to publicise the mistakes the company made to ensure that no-one else has to suffer the horrible effects of any ill health or accident. In order to get a successful prosecution, the inspector has to carry out a thorough investigation, write up a (hopefully) watertight investigation and prosecution report which is generally peer reviewed throughout the process. There is also a framework to follow to decide what enforcement action should be taken. See http://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/emm.pdf The final decision to PR or not is the line managers. The whole process usually takes 2 years from start to finish on average. As some may be aware this job can be made difficult by obstruction from the company (which, however you look at it does not bring justice to the injured/bereaved and is insulting to the rest of the staff) and very intimidating solicitors. So, there is no "rush" to prosecute anyone. In fact, the majority of issues raised to HSE are from families or injured parties absolutely bloody mad-angry that no prosecution can be brought against a company due to lack of evidence or just a lack of resources to investigate the accident. The complete down grading in all areas of HSE is very real and something we should all rally against but that is for another debate. I would suggest you perhaps talk to someone who has been injured or maybe someone who has lost a loved one as it seems you are fortunate enough not to be in that position yourself. You seem to suggest that a prosecution is not a good thing. I quote: "something as detrimental as a PR". What do you suggest then Liz? Just a commendation from a judge for someone for killing or injuring their workers?

Posted By Anders Molko EHO's earn a decent salary (usually between 25-30k for a starter) and dont get any bonuses for prosecutions, although some LA's I worked for did encourage prosecutions and did like to be in the limelight. As for the 18 year old comment, its very true from what i see. Youngs lads/lasses coming out of a 3/4 year college course without a clue are put into these roles and can sometimes go on a bit of a power buzz. They dont ahve a first hand experience of industry work and therefore dont see over the other side of the fence.

Posted By andrew morris Just to clarify Anders comments, EHO's (only- can't speak for HSI's) earn between 23 and 29,500 outside of London, and generally progress by a few hundred pounds a year to about half way at which point they have to sit a professional competance exam. Before qualifying as gung ho, prosecution orientated nazi's we have to complete a 3yr accredited degree, a further years practical training, and sit 5 professional exams and a professional interview. We also maintain a level of CPD. When spotty EHO's are let loose and go on a power trip, all notices have to go through line managers, and in general there is at least 3 months further area specific training before they are "on their own". After 6 years I still pass my notices by my line managers to ensure that what I'm doing is proportionate. Before people gob off and suggest H&S inspectors are powercrazed (whether HSI/EHO or other) can you remember that you will always see it differently as you are the one being served on. And that there are good and bad apples in every job. I've met my fair share of people from the dark side (you lot! :-)) who don't know health and safety from cake baking. Also, most inspectors realise then any action they take is their problem not the Councils (which is different to the other specialisms where normally the council will take the rap automatically) If I mess up - I go to the guillatine just like you guys.... We all started somewhere and build up experience and even the most experienced make mistakes.... Oh no I forgot, Non-regulators hatch from an egg with all the experience and knowledge they need. Thats why some who claim to have been in the industry for donkeys years and are all knowing miss the simplest of things.... And all this from Anders Thred who may even be a regulator - Shame on you for breaking ranks.... Elizabeth, back to thread - I can't tell who's got the better argument here and I don't think we'll ever convince each other - shall we just meet on the top arm of a crane and walk backwards - who ever falls first wins?? :-)