Posted By andrew morris
No targets for prosecutions or notices. The only targets we have (out of the authorities I worked for) are for numbers of inspections and response times...

Prosecutions are bad for these stats as they take too long to write up!

I think it should also be clarified when people say "prosecution orientated" it does not mean that the authority sets targets for enf action. It is a relative comment comparing them to other authority who have traditionally not proscuted because they are either smaller, or lack the legal prowess in the solicitors department to take action. Some authorities are scared of looking like a bully even in the most obvious of blatant disregards for safety. This makes the other, more confident authorities look gung ho. Managers in these more confident authorities will generally guide less experiences colleagues like the 18yr olds in the right direction re prosecution.

Posted By David Thomas
Reading through this lot I detect alot of indignation - which is what I feel.

If an individual is receiving a salary for doing a job then unless there are extenuating circumstances there shouldn't be anything else.

Long gone now are the days when civil servants and local government officers hid behind the "poor salary and working conditions" claim to back up their retiring at 50 on full pension. They are now the lead in salary and working conditions that many of us aspire to obtaining sometime in the future.

Humbug I say

Posted By Sam Wade
I don't normally respond to a thread like this, mainly because I'm not very good at articulating my argument, but here goes anyway ........

I believe that there is a perception amongst many health and safety people that Enforcement Officers (HSE, Local Authority, Environment Agency) have quite an easy job on the whole.

They don't have the day-to-day hassle of working within an organisation trying to persuade, force, encourage people to improve their performance.

They simply walk into an organisation and look for faults, or easier still wait for an accident to happen when the faults are more obvious. When asked for advice, their stock answer involves risk assessment.

Most of us could walk round our organisation today and pick faults - putting them right is surely the skill. The Enforcement Officer doesn't need to do that.

So when one of them gets a commendation for a successful prosecution, it simply strengthens the perception that they are only there to pick faults and prosecute - not to help or give advice, or prevent accidents.

It just strengthens that 'us and them' feeling.

This isn't necessarily my perception of course .......

Posted By ElizabethL
Ooops sorry, I was answering a thread from a half hour ago.

Posted By ddraigice
Elizabeth,

What I find astounding is the notion that someone should not receive a congratulations on a job well done (and lets be fair it is nothing but a pat on the back) why is everyone getting so angry about it? Are you that naive to think that a friendly word from a judge will make an inspector want to go out and fight more blue collar crime wherever he comes across it? No, he'll just carry on doing his job.

How can this in any way make him biased and non-impartial (is that a word?)

As a career criminal, I find it disgusting that a police officer should be commended for catching criminals. I mean, what next? Surely they'll be out there trying to catch more and more of us hard working non-working tea-leafs to just try and bump up their figures. For goodness sake don't tell them they are doing a good job. And while we're at it, lets stop their bosses telling them that they've done a good job too, it'll only make them want to catch more of us.

A few points to pick you up on. It is NOT:

"the HSE's opinion that the defendants risk assessments was in no way suitable or sufficient."

It is up to the courts to decide on how to interpret grey areas or whether a breach has been comitted. The system is totally impartial.

However, this case is not a grey area. Some areas may be grey but its not up to HSE to decide. HSE just decides whether the company did enough to comply with legislation, guidance or ACoP's.

Maybe you should be having a go at the court system and the judge in this case. Not the inspector who did a good job.

I for one would like to congratulate all those inspectors who do a good job - especially when they have to deal with narrow-minded people like us!

Will he get a reward in any way? No. Will his career benefit in any way? No.

What we should be talking about is how and why this company came to be in court in the first place and what we can do as H&S professionals to spread the word that they should have systems in place to control exposure to chemicals and other forseeable risks. Not getting bogged down in a totally pointless debate on whether someone should be told they had done a good job.

Posted By I McDonald
"but everyone was congratulating Alan St John Holt for his inclusion in the news years honours list.
Are we guilty of double standards?"

The inclusion in the New Years Honours list surely reflects a life's dedication to the Industry, etc.

Judges commendation - pat on the back for doing the job!

No double standards. Both examples are totally different.

Today I held a very successful Contractor meeting. Question. Where is my commendation? Answer. Only benefit is I did the job I am paid to do. Only reward. Pint after work (paid for by me).

Ian
PS thank god it is Friday

Ian

Posted By I McDonald
Any reward?

Surely the judges commendation may help in securing an increase in public speaker fees if the individual decides to change direction.

Ian
PS I would try it if I had a Judges commendation (don't ask you don't get)

Posted By ElizabethL
Furthermore, I bet he whips it out at the slightest opportunity and plays with it. (His commendation that is!)

Posted By ddraigice
Sorry Liz,

I typed this before you started to get naughty, you cheeky thing. I meant how will it benefit his career? Evidence please.

I also meant to say that the interesting aside is the perception of inspectors in general, not this one.

Posted By ElizabethL
At least then we would have a threesome, as I think most others have left for the weekend ;-)

Elizabeth

Posted By ElizabethL
Flirting? I am sure I have no idea what you mean old man.

Anyway, so about your friend from the article...will he be joining us?

Elizabeth

Posted By ElizabethL
hmmmm... I am beginning to suspect you don't know him at all and that you were just trying to impress me. Tut tut, typical man!

Elizabeth

Posted By ElizabethL
Agreed, I accept your apologise for telling porkies in an effort to make yourself look like an authority on the matter...

Hope your not an EHO seeking a commendation yourself!!!

Elizabeth

Posted By IOSH Moderator
I think the time has come to close this debate.

Thank you all for your contributions (lively at times), but it has now wandered way off topic.

This thread is now locked.

Regards
Jane Blunt
Forum Moderator