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Posted By Robert.
In our office which, basically,is exactly that, with about 50 pers with PCs and work stations and cupboards. The fire points ceach ontain 1 x CO2 and 1 x foam. I understand the need for CO2 but queried the neccessity of foam as it is identified on the bottle that it is not for live electical equipment, which there is an abundance of in the office.
The suppliers informed me that it is absolutely essential due to the fact that the carpet tiles (!!) are combustable and also if there is a paper fire in a bin(!!) that CO2 will not extinguish it. Both events are extremely unlikely and my fire risk assessment is based on the likelihood of electical fires therefore the use of CO2 as an initial means of first aid.
Also if there was a "small" incident which is unlikely, is foam in an office really practical?
Info and comments will be greatly appreciated.
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Posted By Makka
Unless there is a specific requirement for foam, I would be inclined to have basic water extinguishers and Co2 in place.
However as they are already in existence I cannot see any value in replacing them until they reach the end of their service life.
Water will work just effectively as foam on carpets and paper.
Other questions I would ask is who has been trained to use the extinguishers, what is company policy on their use?
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Posted By Adrian Clifton
Robert
Foam extinguishers are for use on liquid fires. Water for solids. CO2 will smother a fire by removing the Oxygen but does not give effective cooling to prevent re-ignition.
We have lots of offices where we provide water and CO2 extinguishers. We only supply foam for kitchen areas.
I deliver fire awreness and prevention training at which time staff are informed what each extinguisher is suitable for (does not include door stop) and that they should only be used to aid escape. Our Fire Marshals are trained in the use of extinguishers to tackle small fires if safe to do so.
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Posted By Robert.
Thank you both for your comments. Both valid.
We have adequate training and awareness in relation to fire
I'm still at a loss as to the initial choice that our suppliers based foam on.
There appears to be no justification.
Ta
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Posted By Jim Walker
I think the supplier would say that wouldn't they? (flog you as many extingishers as possible).
Maybe you ought to review WHY the extingishers are there?
My view is they are there to enable me to fight my way out should the fire be between me & the exit.
It's not employee's job to save my employers property (although I personally would try to do so if I thought it was safe) but to get out of the building quickly.
In a modern office, can you "squirt" extingisher subsance at any fire and not involve electrics? I think not.
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Posted By anon1234
Don't rely on your suppliers they have a vested interest in providing as many extinguishers as possible.
Your fire risk assessment should identify whether you need fire extinguishers, and if you do it should identify how many and of which type.
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Posted By Descarte
I certainly wouldnt recommend a CO2 extinguisher for putting out paper fires etc. like those from waste paper bins or cupboard/storage areas. The reason being lots of bits of paper on fire can be easily spread very quickly by a burst of high pressure gas (even if it is CO2) and could spread the fire to other areas.
Making the correct selection of fire extinguisher before takling a fire is paramount to your success and the users safety and should be covered in training and regularly re-inforced.
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Posted By Mike Wink
If the Foam Extinguishers are of the spray type (They will have a brass nozzle with lots of holes in)they are far better than water extinguishers. Spray foam extinguishers provide a more effective & quicker damping/cooling effect than water, also because of the technical bit within the nozzle head the spray is delivered in droplets, the theory is that no two droplets touch, so electric current can not flow back through the liquid to the user.
NOTE: Beware when using, as the foam will form pools on the floor! Stand in the at your peril!!
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Posted By Makka
There is no certainty that spray foam extinguishers will not conduct electricity. Only that it is much less likely to do so!
In that case good practice would be don't use them near electrical appliances.
Fire extinguisher companies will over provide if you let them, foam extinguishers of the same volume are generally more expensive than water ones, for purchase and service so it increases their sales figures, and thus profits.
It is very much a case of assessing the need and then prescribing to the supplier what you want. as said previously if they are already in place there is no value in changing them until you need to.
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Mmmm! To me the types should be water and CO2 water for paper and carpets waste bins etc and CO2 for electrical fires. AFFF are not suitable for electricals as they are still water based and the risk of them leaving water over electricals is obvious
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Posted By jackw.
Hi, We have always had the basic CO2 and water extinguishers in our offices. But i have noticed recently that the suppliers are trying to replace the water ones with foam in older offices and supply them for new offices. I am unhappy with this as the foam is messy and whilst just about everyone knows not to use a water one on an electrical fire they may not be as sure about a foam one. I have demanded foam be replaced by water one. I cant get an answer re replacing water with foam. But my cynical side says they will make more profit on these.
Cheers.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I think Bob S has touched upon what you probably have ie AFFF (Aqueous Film Forming Foam) and CO2.
The AFFF have the benefit of the same fire capacity as water for a smaller extinguisher size - they are thus easier to lift, carry and use. Whilst not specifically approved for electrical they are in fact tested for electrical conductance up the spray at 33Kv, I believe. Thus if you do accidentally spray electrics you are unlikely to get the shock you definitely will get with water.
Check out what you have - if it is genuine chemical foam then exchange out for AFFF.
I personally never place water extinguishers in offices nowadays because of the problem of electrical kit everywhere.
Bob
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Posted By Sovay Shaw
Robert
I'm on a fire training course tomorrow, taught by Fire and Rescue Service Officers, so will pose this question to them for their comments!
Sovay
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Posted By Stephen Manley
I have read most of the responses to the question of using foam extinguishers in offices and would like to revert everyone back to the basic classification of fires; class 'A' wood, paper etc - use a water extinguisher. Foam extinguishers are generally used on class 'C' fires burning liquids such as fuel etc.
As to whether the foam extinguisher will or will not conduct electricity, I would just like to say that anything that possess's moisture (in my personal view)has a good chance of conducting electricity.
To finish on a lighter note, if anyone remembers the big finally in gremlins 2 when the hero gathered all the nasty gremlins in the reception area of the building, covered them in FOAM and......yes! you remember...he electricuted them!!
PS my company have Co2 and water in the offices.
Steve
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Posted By Stephen Manley
Reference previous comment, note the typing error; foan extinguishers are used on class 'B' fires (burning liquids etc) and class 'C' which is burning gasses (propane, butane etc); my appologies, it's been a long day.
Steve
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Posted By Mark Eastbourne
I have noticed in my college that the previous Fire extinguisher supplier convinced the facilities manager to have foam instead of water even in areas where there were no flammable liquids.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the recharging cost which are significantly higher for foam? I have now stopped using them.
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Posted By Sovay Shaw
As promised earlier in this thread, have just returned from a fire training day, taught by by two fire service officers and after showing them the above comments, thought you would like to know their response.
They generally agreed with your comments, but in their experience, they would recommend carbon dioxide and water, as water is more efficient at dealing with Class A fires, and when used on the carpet tiles and waste bins, etc., would more quickly extinguish the fire than foam. However, there is nothing wrong with using either type. They suggested that if there was a high risk of electrical conductivity or you were worried, get out and leave it to them!
They also agreed that smaller foam extinguishers might be more appropriate in locations where the staff who would use them, were not of a 'hefty stature' and would find the lighter ones easier to use. (Very diplomatically put, I thought!)
Hope that helps. Best I could do after 2 hours stationary contemplation on the A14 after the A1 was shut following an accident! Drive safely all.
Sovay
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Posted By chris white
I wish those with "limited" knowledge of fire extinguisher would not bother posting.
I own a fire extinguisher company and 1/2 of the above in urban legend.
13A rated extinguisher at points of entry and exit, top & bottom of stairs with at least 2 on an upper floors each covering no more than 200m2 each.
9 ltr water 13A rating
6 ltr water 13A rating & B rating for all the plastics and passed electrical conductivity test (35Kv safe)& less that 10Kg for lifting and handeling reasons.
9 ltr water refill cost £12.50+vat
6 ltr foam refill costs £15.00+vat
Purchase price THE SAME.
If you can't trust your service provide then GET A NEW ONE
AFF foam works better on a class A fire in an office enviroment in the same way it's better to water your plants with a spray than a jet of water.
Hope that helps.
Chris.
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Posted By Crim
having just read the above for the first time I'm surprised that noone has recommended swithing off the electrical appliances before firefighting?
Two reasons - if you don't and you use CO2 the fire will probably re-occur and if you use foam you will get a shock!
If the power if off you can then use AFFF but ideally it should be C02.
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Posted By chris white
Crim
How would you have time to switch of the electrics or even get to the plug in a modern office?
How will you get a shock using a AFF foam extinguisher exactly?
Please provide data on the later it would be most intresting to see!
Chris.
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Posted By jackw.
Hi, I have had similar experience recently with suppliers trying to replace water in older offices and initial supply in new ones with foam not water. I am unhappy for a number of reasons..cost. mess when used and water is sufficient for an office re class A fires. Also whilst just about everyone and their granny knows not to use water on electrical fires. This is not, i feel, the case with foam..thus some zealous worker might use it on an electrical fire.. i like things simple (like myself) thus had them replace..at no additional cost, the foam with water..as they didn't consult about the change they had little crumble...hope this helps.
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Posted By chris white
Jackw
It does not say on either the foam extinguisher of the sign above it that it is for electrical fires.
Theay ARE NOT, but it is a hidden advantage.
it's a bit like ABS in the car, you don't drive faster or brake later because you have it but it will be handy in an emergency.
There should be no cost difference buying a 6ltr foam as opposed to a 9ltr water extinguisher and only approx a £2 difference in refilling.
If this is not the case CHANGE SUPPLIER.
The mess factor is as simple as this:
9 ltrs of water
OR
5.95 ltrs of water and 50ml of foam compound.
It does not make the office look like a foam party in Ibiza I promise (unfortunately).
People should be more worried about the frost burn risk from older uninsulated horns on the CO2 extinguishers if the operator inadvertantly hold it during discharge.
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Posted By Bill Parkinson
I have seen some foam testing which has been upto 66kV without any risk to the user of the extinguisher. The reason that you would not want to use a foam extinguisher is that it makes an awful mess of your equipment and possibly you will not be able to salvage the hard drive. With CO2 you may be able to retrieve your data.
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Posted By Merv Newman
Just for interest (and the chance for another anecdote) about 5 years ago we were seriously involved in a fire that started in a neighbours office.
Fire brigade sprayed water everywhere. We lost partition walls, desks and chairs. Paper files were seriously scorched around the edges and smelled to high heaven. But photocopies were OK. Every computer hard disk was recovered. No-one was hurt. (must admit that the hydrangea died)
Dont panic.
Merv
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Posted By Ken Taylor
I thought hydrangeas needed plenty of water, Merv.
It may be that people tend to think of the old chemical foam type extinguishers - which when used to extinguish burning liquid fires can be quite difficult to use successfully - particularly if the liquid is not confined in a convenient tray (as on training courses) or a complete 'blanket' of foam cannot be maintained over the liquid surface.
I always go for CO2s for electrics plus 13As for the carbonaceous stuff (the smaller/lighter ones where appropriate for the occupants concerned). There has been a tendency for some suppliers to go for just these without any CO2 - which I have resisted as good penetration can be needed for electrical equipment, chemicals and water can irreparably damage sensitive equipment (as mentioned above) and staff may go looking for a CO2 if electrics are involved.
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Posted By Crim
Message for Chris White.
Chris I'm so angered by your questions! I'm also happy that I don't work in your office!
Every building has a main electricity isolation switch, if you don't know where yours is it's time you found out.
Once you know where it is add it to your fire action plan.
Foam (whatever type) is made up mostly of water.
Water conducts electricity.
It's OK saying that AFFF foam will not conduct electricity while it is being directed onto a fire but what happens when it hits the floor. It forms puddles which are mostly water and - yes I'll say it again - water conducts electricity!
So now you know how to switch off the power and you also know that foam is not a recommended extinguishing medium for electrical fires - unless the power has been isolated!
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Posted By chris white
Hi Crim
Calm down dear!
And my post again...sssslllllooooooowwwwlllyy!
I don't care how angry you are or if you are angry, sad, lonely or anything else for that matter but thanks for letting us all know your feelings!
Do you know why AFF foam extinguishers do not conduct? The testing they go through or indead anything else about them? I'd really like your input in reply to my question!
If there is a fire I don't intend to include the time consuming electrical shutdown you suggest because in MY office electrical panel is in behind a 1hr firedoor marked "firedoor keep locked shut" and the panel inside has a big sticker on it too saying "danger high voltage" But thanks for your advice.
If you wish I will show you round it and explain in detail all about AFFF and many other boring fire fighting related topics.
Now go make a cup of tea have a digestive and sit down before you burst a blood vessel, songs of praise is coming on!
Chris.
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Posted By Crim
Chris,
I am calm, just angry that you suggest using AFFF on live electricity. That could get somebody killed!
I am unable to provide any info at all on AFFF use for live electrical fires because they are not recommended for such use.
If you were to provide the info suggesting it is safe to use on live electricity then I may be converted to your cause.
Another point is that advice given to anyone who suffers a fire involving electrical equipment is firstly to isolate the supply!
if the main switch is inaccessible then some other means should be provided as, you are right in saying that the plug may not be handy.
I would have thought that your fire risk assessment would have raised this as an issue/action item?
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Posted By chris white
Crim
AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
I NEVER SAID IT WAS !
"passed electrical conductivity test (35Kv safe)" is what I said. BS EN-3 mean anything?
If your wanted a CO2 & a water extinguisher then there is no disadvantage to having a CO2 & AFFF instead. None, ziltch, nada, nil!
I repeat there is no disadvantage (in an office enviroment) of have an AFFF over a water extinguisher.
If you spray AFFF from a 4 meter distance away from you towards a fire there is only one way you could end up with a puddle at your feet, and it wouldn't be water and for that issue you need a doctor I can't help, I'm only a fire engineer, sorry.
How was songs of praise?
Chris.
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Posted By Alan Nicholls
Hi all
When I did my fire risk management course, a question was asked of the Station Officer.
Why don't your guys get ELECTROCUTED when they spray great jets of water into offices and factories when they are on fire? Dosn't water conduct electricity?
The answer came with a bit of a chuckle.
The electrical supply is isolated in the building.
So who stops to turn off the electricity while the fire blazes away?
The action of the fire does that for us, it trips out..
Give me an AFFF extinguisher any day.The spray is directed through a diffuser, you get droplets not a continuous stream
If your worried about the mess it makes, then your in the wrong job.
Don't bother let it burn then see how much mess you have!!
Your main priority is to get everyone out of the building safely!!!
Hope you have your Disaster Plan in place.
Regards Alan N
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Posted By Pete48
Forgive me if I miss the point at this late stage. BUT isn't the "approval" about inadvertent use and not planned use. In other words if the foam extinguisher is marked as "do not use on live electrical risks", it must not be placed where it could be so used. In the UK an unmarked modern foam extinguisher is assumed (I didn't write the code!) to be safe for inadvertent use near live electrics within the test perameters.
Thus using it in an office environment for an electrical fire is not best practice but it will not be unsafe for the user. So from an employee risk point of view rather than a fire safety view, it is not incorrect to have that type available. Training should prevent incorrect use but if it doesnt then no risk to the user.
The code is quite clear and one can surely rely upon it when assesing risk?
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Posted By Paul Cook
Time for my two pennyworth....
I have instructed our extinguisher service provider, not to install any new 9 litre extinguishers at any of our sites. Any existing 9 Litre extinguishers that are condemned through corrosion or misuse are all replaced with 6 litre AFFF.
Fire rating of most 6 Litre AFFF is either 13A or 21A, both equal or better than most 9 litre water extinguishers. Generally speaking, all of the fire points within our corporate property stock are being equipped with 1x 2kg co2 and 1x 6l AFFF. (During refurbishment these are often replaced with stainless steel / brushed aluminium models) The widespread use of two extinguisher types will simplify staff training and the use of AFFF extinguishers which have passed the 35kv conductivity of discharge test reduces the risks associated with incorrect use by a panicing staff member or the have-a-go hero in a fire situation. This also formed part of the mitigation for allowing the installation of stainless steel extinguishers in low risk office environments.
Incidentally, we have approx. 2500 extinguishers spread across 140 sites.
Paul
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