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Posted By Mark Eastbourne
Morning
I work in a college. The college has plumbing, wood trades and various other construction and engineering workshops.
I have been informed that we sometimes have 14 to 16 year old students operating some of this machinery under supervision by the lecturers and technicians.
The students are classified as visitors and not workers but does this make a difference?
Although I am convinced the lecturers are competent and the environment is safe, I am unsure from an insurance point of view where we lie. I have emailed our Insurance company for clarification but from a health and safety point of view, are we allowed to let young students, aged 14 to 16 years old operate machines normally associated with engineering?
Many thanks
Mark
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Posted By The toecap
So long as they are competent and fully supervised under the conditions of a risk assesment thats all you need do according to law.
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Posted By garyh
I think that this is a question of risk and proportionality. After all, people under 16 also use dangerous chemicals in chemistry, throw javelins around, and so on.
It comes down to adequate supervision and also the training and competence of the supervision. The equipment of course would also have to be up to scratch.
Insurance is a separarte issue; I doubt that they will be in favour unless you pay them more!
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Posted By David Bannister
Insurers are likely to want to be sure that the young persons are under 1:1 supervision whilst operating the machines (ie most watching whilst one works under direct control of lecturer/teacher), there is a "state of the art" guarding regime in place, maintenance of the equipment is perfect, that your risk assessments are comprehensive, complete and appropriate, all additional controls are implemented, there are several master emergency stops that stop all equipment in the classroom, the teaching includes clear and unambiguous safety instruction and that the working environment is designed for teaching (ie not as a typical factory, but with adequate space for groups to congregate and be taught).
It is very easy for an insurer to say "NO" but if you can demonstrate a first class approach to the situation you should eb able to convince them, although there may still be additional premiums to consider. Depends whether they were aware of this activity when they agreed to provide the insurance cover.
Your broker should be able to facilitate discussions.
If not, find new brokers and new insurers!
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Posted By Mark Eastbourne
Many thanks The Toecap, garyh and David your for your helpful responses!
While researching this, I was slightly confused about the differences between a child, young person and young worker, but the HSE website put me straight!
"a young person is anyone under eighteen years of age;
a child is anyone who is not over compulsory school age. He or she has not yet reached the official age at which they may leave school, also referred to as the minimum school leaving age (MSLA).
The law on working time defines a young worker as being below 18 years of age and above the MSLA."
This does of course mean I now have children on site, potentially operating these type of machines.
I spoke to a lecturer who says they have only had school children doing these type of courses in the last three years so maybe the insurers do not know...eeek!
Thanks again for your help though.
Mark
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Posted By Christopher Kelly
Hi Mark - of course they know. If they have not stipulated in their policy, you have clearly mentioned on your questionnaires and when being surveyed and that you have the correct balance of PL cover (as advised by your broker) then you shouldn't have a problem. Most educational establishments are insured by the old 'Municipal Mutual' which is well used to dealing with educational environments.
As regards complying with H&S legislation - the workshop is a place of work for the teacher etc but the children are not at work.
Obviously you need to carry out a Young Persons / PUWER risk assessment - key aspect is ensuring that all guards and safety devices are in place; that children are properly inducted into the environment and then supervised (very intensively at first, less so as they become more experienced). In my experience my school had fairly good standards of the first (for the time) however the induction / training and supervision was not as good.
Your Young Person Risk Assessment needs to identify what training and competence levels your workshop teachers need, ensuring that they are able to undertake their own risk assessments (including considering behavioural / competence issues) and that they are also able to judge the level of supervision required for each child, which will be different in every case.
It is important that you carry out a Generic Risk Assessment with the workshop teachers themselves - they probably don't have a good understanding of risk assessment processes but most will be from an engineering background and, with some guidance you should find it works well.
Then implement procedures for specific and ongoing risk assessment by the teachers themselves, supervised by H&S professional. Obviously if the system is to work the teachers need to be given authority to decide whether certain pupils are suitable for this type of environment and how this is dealt with.
Oh - the other key element is regular inspection of general safety, guards and safety devices, teacher and maintenance / facilities management.
Another issue to consider is not overburdening them with paperwork, difficult !
You may find it helpful to talk to some prison (young offenders) institutions EHS personnel - I found their risk assessments, training, procedures, supervision and ongoing review to be excellent - obviously they cannot afford to take risks where there is dangerous equipment and possibly irresponsible / incompetent personnel. They also have to deal with the young person issue, although not as young as 13/14.
Hope of help,
Regards
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Posted By Pete48 Mark, you do not say in what capacity you work at the college. I apologise if reference to the following link is teaching grandma but your question suggests that you have not seen it. http://www.safelearner.i...rning%20%20the%20Law.pdfYou will see from this that the duties and responsibilities for this type of work related learning is clearly outlined. It would seem unlikely that both a school and a college would be unaware of these responsibilities and not already agreed safe plans for this activity. There can be no doubt that introducing children into any "workplace" requires very careful thought and consideration. There is no doubt that supervision is one very important part but never lose sight of the fact that workplaces and work equipment are not normally designed/supplied for use by children. The duty of care is very high. That means you have to be very sure that your assessment is actually suitable and sufficient. For example, would you think to check whether the guards will actually protect all the children attending or just that they exist? Do you understand the importance of individual assessment of each student to ensure that any specific characteristics have been included in any assessment (learning difficulties, medical conditions, immaturity etc) Before the here we go again H&S says no brigade get their pens out, I am not saying this should never happen, especially in an educational establishment where some of the "real world" issues can never be replicated and the supervisors(teachers?)are specifically trained and skilled in supervising children. I am just stressing that it does need very careful assessment. Many providers of work experience do not allow use of machinery by work experience students.
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Posted By Mark Eastbourne
Chaps
Just wanted to say thank you for your very informative responses, I certainly apprecuate the time you have put into writing them and you both have raised some very valid points, ones which I will address.
You have helped me sirs and I thank you.
Regards
Mark
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