Posted By Telfie A new government initiative is about to start, part of this initiative is to allow 14 year old school children to work for one day a week, over a 26 week period on some of sites. (Construction, plumbing, electrical, motor vehicle repair) I would like your thoughts please on this issue.... as i am going around in circles trying to make a decision I believe if the right procedures are put in place it will work…but on the other hand HSE guidance tell us Young people who are under the school leaving age must not be allowed to do work which: - · Cannot be adapted to meet any physical or mental limitations · Exposes them to substances which are toxic or cause cancer · Exposes them to radiation · Involves extreme heat, noise or vibration The question is just what are they allowed to do, as I am sure the 4 areas mentioned above will mean some exposure All help or advice is greatly appreciated Eggy

Posted By Pete48 Telfie, this is not a new initiative as such more an extension of existing arrangements. I suggest you contact your local EBP (see link to site) who will I am sure be able to assist you in gaining a greater understanding of what this is all about and get some help in deciding what support you may be able to provide for the wider initiative. http://www.nebpn.org/work_experience.htm

Posted By Pete48 Phil, a point well made. Taking on WEX is a responsibility that requires good supervision at all times. But as you illustrate, youngsters are often anxious to please and show what they know(?). Young lads are, of course, indestructible are they no? (he he). I hope it doesn't dissuade anyone from trying it. It can be a most rewarding experience for the company and the student, if they both apply themselves to the task in hand. I meet hundreds of providers who are proud to tell me that they have employed the lad or lass who came on work experience. Equally, the vast majority of kids find the experience rewarding and helpful. Not all jobs are suitable but, possibly apart from large and complex construction sites, most can safely accommodate WEX with a little thought.

Posted By Alan Woodage Firstly I agree with Pete48, the WEX can be very rewarding and beneficial to both parties. As for the high level of risk and minors I must question this. If we employ an 18 year old lad we don't have the same problem?? in my opinion the problem is worse the 14 year old is likely to still be quite placid and keen to learn, the 18 year old will see his inexperience as a weakness and want to show off more. If we do not expose young people to controlled levels of risk how are they ever going to achieve risk perception in there adult life? Yes this needs to be strictly controlled but we must encourage young people into industry and find there talents. Personally I gained a great deal from WEX and I was wandering around a large paper mill and engineering plant at 14. This was long before we turned into a nanny state and I don't recall any of my school colleagues being injured doing WEX. Truthfully I would say it's the litigious society we are descending into that is holding back this country and yes we as safety professionals add to this concern, but ultimately we need to educate people and levels of risk are to be managed not avoided at all costs.

Posted By garvey now most of you say you are not kill joys but you are. you think have a reasonable opinion on what its like being a 14 year old doing work experience, but if you really did understand you wouldnt want to wrap everyone up in bubble wrap, now i am the only person i know of in theis forum who is actually doing work experiance and health and safety have actually managed to suck all the fun out of it well done :(

Posted By roberto carlos ok bob your response to pat was to do with just one example of work experience which can be dangerous applied to anybody who doesnt know what thy are doing. the reason these students pick the work experience they do is because they think its what they would like to do, and the whole concept of experience is 'the process or fact of personally observing, encountering, or undergoing something' these students should not be given work experience which is not like the real deal but a rubbish morbidly boring version where they are wrapped in cotton wool so contrary to what you were saying bob you are a killjoy.

Posted By Pete48 Roberto, yes but there are some things that children have to wait to experience legally. Furthermore, we all know that training and competence keep most of us safe every day. Here we have an untrained child who is only going to be around for week or two. A mighty big responsibility. So Bob is not a killjoy, anymore than H&S is the culprit, if indeed anyone is. The educational benefit from the work related learning and the risks associated with the experience is what determines whether a placement can happen. If you stop to consider some examples in your mind, how about turning up at your local NHS hospital and having a work experience student dispense your medication? Or perhaps your car is in the local garage and it is a work experience who adjusts your brakes? What would your response be if a child was killed when they were run over by a large excavator on a construction site? Would you really say, "oh well they wanted to work in construction, we all know it is dangerous, shame they died so young". You would be very lonely if you did. So if we say those things are not allowed, let's say for H&S reasons, does that make H&S a killjoy? The people who really know the risks are the experience providers; and let's not forget that they carry the responsibility and liability that accrues. Learning to respect their decisions and trying to understand them is the most important H&S lesson for many. Not being able to appreciate the reasons for the prohibitions indicates an immaturity that confirms the need for the controls to exist. Time enough to explore high risks when an employer takes on a young person and they contract to each other; then experience can be developed through structured training, supervision etc.

Posted By J Matthews Work experience for those who are still under the Minimum school leaving age (MSLA) is a complex area. When anything such as a fatality happens (and it has) then society and parents rightly recoil in horror. When the HSE translated the European Directive on the protection of young people at work, into UK legislation the re was not a specific reference to the need for level of supervision In the Management of Health and Safety at work Regulations 1999 under Para 19(Protection of young persons) it says Nothing in paragraph (2) shall prevent the employment of a young person who is no longer a child for work - (a) where it is necessary for his training; (b) where the young person will be supervised by a competent person; and (c) where any risk will be reduced to the lowest level that is reasonably practicable. The Supervisor is most important safeguard for any young learner yet we still have no National Standard for supervision. Never mind trying to wrap young people up in cotton wool, give them a proper chance to learn under the guidance of someone who is a competent supervisor. I have been able to track accidents to young people on work experience for a number of years and poor or inadequate supervision is the main cause of the majority of accidents to this class of person. It is not rocket science but it will prove to be expensive to ensure that young persons are properly supervised. John Matthews

Posted By J Matthews Thanks Frank for coming back on this and we do need to make the system just as simple as we can but the responsibilities on the shoulders of the supervisor are greater perhaps than a "Buddy system". One of the problems is that the supervisor needs to have a close relationship with the learner so they are approachable and as supportive as possible. On the other hand the supervisor needs to have authority vested in him/her to insist on safe routines and processes. If the work being done by the learner reaches the stage where their safety is threatened, then surely the supervisor must have the power to stop the work in the interest of the learner. I would suggest that supervisors need to be above the level of a buddy. John Matthews

Posted By Pete48 Guys, there is an important phrase in the extract from the regs that we need to emphasise. "who is no longer a child". The comments that follow in J Matthews posting therefore ONLY apply to those over minimum school leaving age.(year 11 or 16 years of age)Of course, supervision for children is just as important, if not more so, since they must ensure that children are not exposed to the same level of risk as young persons. Basically the law reduces the risks you can take with a child in the workplace even further. I do not see this as wrapping kids in cotton wool. WEX is a very positive experience for the vast majority of kids, as they confirm in regular surveys, and helps them to focus and decide on career paths. The reality may not be as much fun as they imagined. However, where the provider is doing a good job they will involve the children in the risk assessment so that they can gain an understanding of some basic principles in action and also learn to respect the need for controls in the workplace. We no longer need to send kids down the mines or up chimneys to learn how to survive the world of work.

Posted By Telfie Some good points made above, just what i would expect on this site From my original posting and reading the responses, my company has decided to allow W/E to take place in the following areas · Construction · Plumbing · Electrical · Workshops · Offices To allow this to happen our company has agreed to have three competent persons from each section trained and CRB checked to look after the W/E I mentioned in my original thread “just what can they do” well after sitting down with our managers we decided on allowing the W/E in the above areas with tight controls It’s no good taking a W/E just to stick them in some corner out of the way. Telfie

Posted By Hilary Charlton We have had young apprentices from school at our workplace for 2 and a half years now. The kids are on a mechanical engineering course and come to us one day a week and go to college one day a week with three days a week at school for two years (age 14 - 16). At the end of this period they leave school with a BTec First Certificate in Engineering and some understanding of the outside world. We do not allow these kids to actually work hands-on on the shop floor, they shadow a worker in each area whom they will watch through all the processes, learn how to do each task so that they can then apply real life technique to the Engineering Workshop at college where they are allowed to work on machines. The training agency will come into your workplace and ensure that you are fit to have these young people on site, that you have a robust health and safety system and people who are expected to mentor them. In our case the mentoring falls to myself and the Manufacturing Manager. So far the system has worked well. We had two young apprentices who completed in 2006 and had two more start who will complete in 2008. One of the 2006 young apprentices has now become a full apprentice with us so we have both gained from the process. If you want any more information then e-mail me direct. Hope this helps. Hilary