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Smokefree Workplace
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#1 Posted : 15 February 2007 09:14:00(UTC)
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Posted By Judith Chandler
What do people think about having a smokefree workplace policy that bans smoking from company carparks but then allows people to smoke in their own cars on site?
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#2 Posted : 15 February 2007 09:24:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
Do they have to keep the windows closed?

A
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#3 Posted : 15 February 2007 09:27:00(UTC)
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Posted By holmezy


Doesnt sound like a smoke free workplace policy. Seems odd that you dont allow smoking in the open air, but do in a car, where it will be more concentrated. What about discrimination issues for smokers that dont have a car to go and sit in? Why not either have a company policy that prohibits smoking in company cars?

Holmezy
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#4 Posted : 15 February 2007 09:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Judith Chandler
Its good to see that your thinking is in line with what we are thinking. We have had a query on how we can ban people from smoking in their own cars and how difficult it would be to police. I agree that to allow people to smoke in their own cars on site will discriminate against those smokers who do not have cars. It is usually managers who have their own dedicated parking places on site and in my opinion they should be leading by example. What do you think?
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#5 Posted : 15 February 2007 09:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jim Walker
It must be wonderful to have H&S so wrapped up that you can worry about such trivial issues.

So long as smokers are not polluting non smokers, I'd not worry about fine detail.

I mean who is going to complain, we have instances were people are being killed at work and the perpetrators get their wrists smacked so I doubt a minor technical offences is going to attract any attention.

Further, all of you out there stressing yourself over smoking legislation - chill out!

In Scotland there was all this breast beating but the law came in with no problems.




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#6 Posted : 15 February 2007 09:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By Crim
Why not allow them to smoke in their own cars but off site?

Question - is it allowed for the public pavement outside a workplace to be used as a smoking area?

If it is then members of the ordinary public will be contaminated by smoke!
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#7 Posted : 15 February 2007 09:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By Clarke Kent the 2nd
If its a site wide smoking ban, then this includes the car parks, most local hospital around here have introduced site wide smoking bans and this includes in the car parks in your own car.

If someone is smoking in your private car park, ask them to remove there car or face being clamped.
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#8 Posted : 15 February 2007 09:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert.
Our MD wants to ban smoking in Co cars.
However one individual, rightly or wrongly has commented that the pending action is unreasonable and that the Co car is not fully funded and he pays tax on benefit in kind and sees this as an infringment on his rights.
He says he will, and I agree, not smoke in the car if a passenger does not smoke or requests that he doesn't smoke during the period in the car.
Is that a common sense approach?
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#9 Posted : 15 February 2007 10:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By Clarke Kent the 2nd
Common sense yes, but in compliance with the new regs in which smoking in company cars is prohibited full stop.
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#10 Posted : 15 February 2007 10:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert.
So, how on earth can anything like that be policed or enforced.
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#11 Posted : 15 February 2007 10:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By holmezy
Clarke,

I thought it was ok for a company car driver to smoke in a company car providing he is the sole user of the company car........unless its company policy not to. Law and company policy are different things.

Holmezy
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#12 Posted : 15 February 2007 21:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By David Bramall
What is all the fuss about smoking. It has nothing to do with us really. Government bring in the law and we obey it like good citizens.
Please give it a rest with "smokers are silly, deserve what they get, let them stand outside in the snow..." Offer help if anyone wants to quit otherwise leave them alone. These forums have been quite heavily reliant on smoking issues recently - time to move on perhaps!
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#13 Posted : 15 February 2007 21:39:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andrew Rushton
Smoking in company cars will not be prohibited if it is your company car. Think about it. You pay income tax on it for private use, it is a private vehicle.

Pool cars I have yet to wrap my head around.
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#14 Posted : 15 February 2007 21:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andrew Rushton
Be warned if it is like the scottish regulations, it will be policed. We had our scottish branch and work vehicles inspected within months of the regulations coming in to force.
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#15 Posted : 15 February 2007 21:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andrew Rushton
Vack to the original question. If you want to ban smoking on site, do it. Many companies have been doing it for years in the food and paper industries.

If you want to be touchy feely HR nice with your employees, you could always take an Occ' health approach and run a canpaign with some support to help people stop smoking, at the same time as you ban smoking on the site.
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#16 Posted : 16 February 2007 01:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Rob T
Isn't it about time some of you actually grew up? You have got what you wanted on typically flawed research which tells you what you want to hear but no, you can't leave it alone. Smoking will be banned in areas which have non-smokers in which, I naively thought, was what you wanted! No, you have just shown yourselves as fascists who just want to stop people doing something which is legal in their own presence. All the lies about just wanting to protect non-smokers are now coming out and the psychologically challenged amongst you now want to push further to outlaw a passive habit which consenting adults wish to partake in. It's no longer an H&S issue so go forth and try to ban something else you haven't researched and leave this website alone. If you want to carry on spouting do so on the ASH website - they're fanatics so you may feel at home.
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#17 Posted : 16 February 2007 06:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kate Graham
The regs seem pretty clear about pool cars, smoking is banned in them, that's all there is to it. To quote the relevant parts for vehicles:
__________________

1) Subject to the following paragraphs of this regulation, an enclosed vehicle and any enclosed part of a vehicle is smoke-free if it is used—

(a) by members of the public or a section of the public (whether or not for reward or hire); or

(b) in the course of paid or voluntary work by more than one person (even if those persons use the vehicle at different times, or only intermittently).

--
definition of enclosed vehicle snipped - we all know a car is one>>
--

(5) A vehicle is not used in the course of paid or voluntary work for the purposes of paragraph (1)(b) where it is used primarily for the private purposes of a person who—

(a) owns it; or

(b) has a right to use it which is not restricted to a particular journey.
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#18 Posted : 16 February 2007 11:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By jackw.
Hi. scotland ..law is clear you can NOT smoke in a company vehicle. On the other hand if you drive a behicle that you have leased via your company you can as ity is classified as your own car.

On smoking in car parks, whilst we, as a LA, have a strict ban on smoking in the workplace, vehicles etc. we do allow staff to smoke at the back of our main office which is a staff car park.

Cheers.
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#19 Posted : 16 February 2007 13:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By BeSafe
Going back to the original response, I would say that it is an unreasonable policy that will be difficult to enforce. Are you going to get to the stage of staff driving their cars onto the road outside your site and lighting up there then driving back in- probably a greater risk from moving vehicles!

Unless it is a hazardous site, such as a chemical plant, why go to the extent of banning smoking in the open air car park which seems a bit excessive. The new legislation covers "enclosed spaces" so does not really come into it. Yes, smoking is a health hazard but as safety professional I really haven't got an issue with it in the open air unless it's next to some flammables!

Look at the extreme example of one of the NHS hospitals in Essex implementing a site wide ban. Tragically, a nurse went off site to smoke and was murdered. Some staff will continue to smoke, why not keep them safe and secure in your own grounds?

Why not treat people as human beings and provide a designated smoking area within your grounds with a smoking bin etc?! I don't smoke but I know that bringing in draconian and unreasonable smoking policies isn't going to win the argument and make people suddenly give up smoking. It just makes the H&S department even more unpopular!

I read that Big Brother Blair and co want to ban advertising of foodstuffs such as Marmite and honey! Will we get to the stage where we have to eventually police work canteens for such hazardous items?!
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#20 Posted : 05 April 2007 10:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By remfanuk
my workplace (local govt/nhs) has told us that it is trust policy that community workers cannot even smoke in their own private vehicles as they are driving around on the way to home visits, even if they are alone in their own car!

surely this is policy gone mad and must contravene some human rights legislation.

anybody have any thoughts on the legality of this please?
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#21 Posted : 05 April 2007 10:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight
I'm intrigued by this one. In England you can smoke in a company car provided it is not used by other people at work. Now, that would include me (though I don't smoke) as I have never yet carried any of my colleagues in my company car in the three years I've had one. However, Jack says that in Scotland it's clearly banned. So if one of our smoking workers based in England visits Scotland in his or her car, does that mean they can't smoke in their company car while they are in Scotland? This is a serious query, as it will affect some of our employees,

John
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#22 Posted : 05 April 2007 11:05:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
I don't think the legislation makes it an offence to smoke in a private vehicle used by someone at work, though it could depend on the contractual arrangement.

Nothing to stop the employer making such a policy though, and that's what appears to have been the case here.

Alan
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#23 Posted : 05 April 2007 11:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight
No, Jack's right; remember he's talking about Scotland, and the Scottish Regs (The Prohibition of Smoking in Certain Premises (Scotland) Regulations 2006) exclude certain premises. Premises includes vehicles but not private cars; private cars are defined as; "private vehicle" means-

'(a) any car which is used for the private purposes of the person who owns it or of a person having the right to use it; and

(b) any other vehicle which is used primarily for the private purposes of the person who owns it or of a person having the right to use it'

It looks to me as though a company car is not a private vehicle by this definition,

John
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#24 Posted : 05 April 2007 12:01:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Young
Company cars are exempt in Scotland. This is an extract from clearingtheairscotland.com

Are vehicles caught by the smoke-free law?
"All cars, whether used for business or private purposes, are exempt from the law, unless they are being used as a private taxi. So company cars will not be caught. All other vehicles, i.e. vans and lorries, used primarily for business purposes and any public transportation vehicles will be affected by the new law."
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#25 Posted : 05 April 2007 12:10:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight
Actually Ron on second reading I agree; the word 'primarily' is missing from the first part of the definition, and therefore means that a car used for private purposes to any extent is exempt, phew,

John
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#26 Posted : 06 April 2007 08:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave West
The smoking in cars seems an issues that affects us all.

Speak to your leasing agency and they will tell you all you need to know. The "nobody else uses my car" does not exempt you from the law. It states that Smoking will only be permitted in work vehicles that are for the sole use of the driver and not used by anybody else for work either as a driver OR A PASSENGER. So the what they are saying is you are exempt if your vehicle NEVER carries passengers and i checked this with smoke free England and was told that this does not mean not smoking in the car when there is a passenger.

I was also told that smoking is NOT allowed in private vehicles in company car parks unless the car park is a public car park. Allowing people to smoke in their own cars on private land basically classes it as a smoke room.

Though i don't blame people for banning smoking on site i will not be myself unless people break the rules. If you are going to ban it i feel you must give people the support they deserve. I would go as far as to say that letting employees go COLD TURKEY with no support will have a detrimental affect to health and safety and I'm sure someone will put a claim in that their human rights are being affected.:-)

Another thing i found out is that if the path outside is council property then you can not stop them smoking there UNDER THE NEW REGS but i have heard of companies putting in their own rules.

Have nice Easter

Dave
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#27 Posted : 09 April 2007 20:18:00(UTC)
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#28 Posted : 10 April 2007 14:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Zaphod
I'm intregued about what the regulations require and am watching this thread with interest.

Personally, I find the stale smell of cigarette smoke in cars or on people pretty foul. Our organisation supports people with learning disabilities, many of our staff drive the people they support from A to B - often in their own cars. Why should our 'clients' have to put up with the disgusting smell. This is just my personal opinion, we do not have a clear policy on this yet. We also provide schools - where teachers and support workers smoke in the grounds of the schools - we are currently debating policy - worried about retaining staff. However, again my personal opinion is that teachers are setting a really bad example to young and vulnerable people - then going back into the school wreaking of cigarette smoke.
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#29 Posted : 11 April 2007 14:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight
Dave,

Nobody has a human right to smoke; read what it says in the Act. And I agree, in England you can't smoke in your complany vehicle if its used for carrying passengers who are at work. The Scottish law is written slightly differently though, and seems to imply that you can smoke in your company car,

John
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#30 Posted : 12 April 2007 07:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave West
John my Human rights comment was tongue and cheek:-) Though after seeing those prisoners win their case for not being givendrugs in jail nothing would suprise me! I have put a ban in smoking n all cars at work anyway so no matter where in the UK they are it will be the same.
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#31 Posted : 12 April 2007 09:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Try reading the legislation put in place by the Welsh Assembly - log on to Smoking Ban Wales. Its quite simple if its a workplace smoking is banned, if you are driving a vehicle (any vehicle owner or company car) the ban applies where the vehicle is at any time used by others or conveys two or more persons. Is it me or is this yet again smokers trying to winge about something they don't like. Well for one I am fully behind it I don't smoke and don't like having to ingest or breath in other peoples filthy habits. Long may smokers be cast aside whiule they take such selfish attitudes. I know what smoking can do to someones health, watch relative die. Good riddance I say.
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#32 Posted : 12 April 2007 10:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By Clare Gabriel
All or nothing - this is far too whimsical. Do we really want to encourage people lighting up where there is a 'forseeable risk' of spilled petrol?

Get a couple of bus shelters or draw some squares on the floor.

I really think you are lining yourself up for some serious mis-interpretation.
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#33 Posted : 12 April 2007 15:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight
Re my earlier comments about Scotland; the definition of 'private vehicle' ('used wholly or mainly for the purposes of the person who owns it or has a right to use it')is different in Wales, and it does seem to mean that most company cars will be no-smoking under the Welsh legislation,

John
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#34 Posted : 12 April 2007 15:14:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
...Unless they're convertibles with the roof down.
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#35 Posted : 12 April 2007 15:34:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight
Sorry Jonathon. a car is enclosed anyway even if its not, in fact reading the definitions a motor bike would be enclosed...

And it gets much much worse. If we have a company car driver based in England he or she is allowed to smoke in their car, even if they occasionally give lifts to colleagues. So if they go to Wales on a work trip, and they have smoked in their car in England, are they then in breach of Welsh laws? Or does the smoking not count because it happened abroad? The joys of devolution. I think I need to go and lie down in a quiet place...

This actually matters to us as we have Charity Shops in Wales line-managed by people based in England,

John
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#36 Posted : 12 April 2007 15:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By Edward Shyer
Yes legislation is to control where people are allowed to smoke this it is being said following medical research and the overwhelming evidence. BUT have we been told the whole truth?

Just to add a different slant on this topic of medical evidence to smoking and passive smoking research look at the following sites and discuss.


http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/big_liars.htm
http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/2004%20July.htm


Regards
Ted
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#37 Posted : 12 April 2007 15:49:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight
Ted,

fascinating, but to me it seems rather like the pro-speed pro-death sites in that it comes very close to denying that smoking causes any harm at all; it does, so at what point does the author accept that? And here's one quote from the writer 'What they choose to ignore is that tobacco, like alcohol, is a great stress reliever'; it isn't, you know. Tobacco smoke causes vaso-constriction and this, along with other specific effects on the body, means that tobacco promotes, rather than relieves stress; stress in its real, metabolic sense, rather than the junk-science sense it is being used in on the web-site,

John
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#38 Posted : 12 April 2007 15:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
John,

I know it's an academic argument really, but how do you interpret R. 4-(2) and R. 4-(5) of the Wales Regs then?

I had understood the regulation to only apply to "enclosed" vehicles with a specific exemption given to vehicles with roofs stowed away.

(In any case, our own company policy makes no such exemption.)
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#39 Posted : 12 April 2007 15:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight
Sorry Jonathon,

got carried away stressing out about people driving over the border and being picked off by roving border fag police patrols. You're right, we shall issue our company car drivers with convertibles and make them drive top-down at all times,

John
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#40 Posted : 12 April 2007 15:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
LOL.

You'd not be able to smoke over here with the top down anyway.

Rain would put it out!
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