Posted By The toecap
I am the same. I sympathise. Its crazy

Posted By Eddie Campbell
Och it's only a 10 minute test and £17.50 and the card is all yours to treasure!

I've had one for over 2 years now and I have never been asked to see it. Not even once.

I did try and use it as proof of identity to pick up a parcel at the sorting office but the nice chap behind the counter would not accept it.

I'm sure it will come in handy one day.

Eddie

;-{)

Posted By Clarke Kent the 2nd
Every Large construction site i have ever been on has required CSCS cards.

And every company i check the competence of has to prove % of staff who hold valid CSCS cards.

So they do come in useful and are used.

Eddie you should get yourself some work with bigger more competent contractors, where you will see the are used more often.

On another not my Degree in Safety, Health & Environmental Management and relevant experience doesn't allow myself the privilege of having a CSCS card either.

Posted By Crim
I agree with most of the above but my test only took 5 minutes for a 100% pass score.

I must add that I read the book cover to cover a few times and did learn a few things. I don't think anyone knows everything even if they say they do, so it was, for me, a beneficial exercise.

Just go along with it and follow the CSCS rules then you can say you earned it by passing the same test as everyone else on site.

Posted By Peter Leese
Clark Kent

Every Large construction site i have ever been on has required CSCS cards.

Unlike yourself I've never been asked for it at any of the MCG sites, and in and audit of the largest one it turns out only plant operatives need them. So we have a clear disparity Clark, between what you've seen and what I have experienced.

Crim

It took me at least 45 minutes to organise the test and pay for it. It took me another hour to get photographs. On the day of the test it took me 55 minutes to get there, a 15 minute wait, the time to take the test and another hour to get back to the office. It's a journey of 17 miles and the car parking was £3.50. It disrupted part of my day. So your reference to taking 5 minutes is meaningless.

I hold a degree, I am a CMIOSH, I have a NEBOSH construction certificate, I run my own business of which approximately 40% is construction related, and I and my staff (equally qualified) are on construction sites at least 10% of our working lives.

The H&S test for CSCS cards is a complete waste of time for people like us in the profession, it is an insult to the intelligence, and the whole system is a farce.

And, I have to say, supercilious remarks on this forum do not help make it any more sensible.

Posted By Peter Leese
Steve, would you take just a couple of minutes to read through my comments. Perhaps you will then see I'm arguing the H&S 'test' aspect.

Your other comments about 'so called professionals' isn't valid in my case so again, perhaps you could also look at the intent behind your words and terminology you have used.

I've stated facts and then an opinion - once more perhaps you could explain which part of my comments you've taken exception to.

Also could you advise on your background - are you H&S, a surveyor, architect or what? It helps if readers can see where the bias/experience lays.

Posted By Peter Leese
And that warranted the remark about 'so called professionals'?

So let's discuss this a little further.

What are we achieving by making H&S professionals sit a 'vote for joe' test that is an insult to their intelligence?

How does sitting this test make H&S professionals with recognised safety qualifications more competent to come on site.

How does sitting the test stop the problem of non-competent H&S professionals coming on 'your' site and interfering with perfectly competent contractors?

I'm all for safety initiatives that make sense and serve some use. So should we all be. In this particular case this one does not make any sense, it is a costly and time consuming process that serves no purpose, and the time and resources would be better spent elsewhere.

Posted By Peter Leese
'I'm so sorry it took you so long to organise and sit the CSCS test, and the high cost of car parking, gosh you were put out weren't you?'

Yes I was Crim and so have a number of others. I'm happy that people have other opinions (and hopefully you won't deny me mine), but most of us would prefer it if we could continue the discussion without sarcasm. It doesn't help others who want to join in.

You also said: After passing the test you proved competent and I just wonder how, as a health and safety professional, you can criticise a competence measure.

I'd already proved my competence - could you elaborate on how this test added to it?


And finally you take exception to my comment:
"The H&S test for CSCS cards is a complete waste of time for people like us in the profession, it is an insult to the intelligence, and the whole system is a farce" ......by saying it is an insult to the CS training board who are only trying to raise standards on site in an effort to reduce the problems associated with H & S in construction.

How does me taking a simple test like this raise standards on site?

And if a system is clearly wrong like this one is, then shouldn't 'they' be doing something about it to resolve it?

To say it is sacrosanct because it is a safety initiative is not to understand that the system could be greatly improved.

Posted By Steve99Jones
Peter

I think that you need to stand back a little and look at the wider picture.

The introduction of CSCS has at least provided some basic health and safety 'awareness' training for many tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of site operatives who would otherwise not have been given any form of health and safety training.

Of those who have taken the test, many will not have had any preparatory training, but a lot will have attended either a one day or half day training internal/external course to prepare them for the test. That is a massive achievement for your average labourer or carpenter.

Even then, for those that have not had any awareness training, I bet that at least 95% of them have, as Eddie has confessed above, read at the very least, the relevant section of the CSCS handbook to try and learn as many of the answers as they could - could this not be defined as distance learning or self study!!!

Therefore how can we as H&S practitioners say that this training which the guys on site would never otherwise receive is bad, and if we are to support that positive effect it has for the workforce, how can we do this if we do not participate and lead by example.

so as for:

"What are we achieving by making H&S professionals sit a 'vote for joe' test that is an insult to their intelligence?"

We are trying to make a difference and lead by example. As for an insult to your intelligence, well...it really depends on how you define intelligence!

Anyway, if you spend 90% of your time in your office or with non construction clients (or 10% of your time on construction sites if you prefer it that way round), and given the fact that you have never been asked for your CSCS card, and given your clear objections to the entire CSCS process, why did you even bother going for it in the first place?

Posted By Steve99Jones
Hi Steve Butler

Who are you asking the question of?

Regards

Steve Jones

Posted By Steve99Jones
Peter

I am not trying to widen it to the whole of CSCS scheme, I've always been talking about the (whole) CSCS scheme. What are you therefore talking about.

You seem to be prefixed on the fact that because personally have not learnt anything from taking the test, that the whole scheme must be useless. I am sure that if you want CSCS to make the entry requirement for Safety Practitioners to be at PhD level, they would be open to the suggestion! But how is that going to improve the situation?

What I am trying to get across to you is that you are just a small part of the CSCS scheme, but as H&S practitioners, we are looked up to (in terms of H&S) by those on site for advice. So we therefore need to lead by example and follow the same criteria as everyone else on the site, why should we be given an exception? If we expect others to do the test, it is only fair to them that we should also complete it. I do not understand why so many people are reluctant to give this simple indication to others on site that the scheme has some benefits to the safety of the whole project - please try and see that it is not about us as individuals or our ability to pass the test.

If we make out that the test is a joke, what is Barry the brickie going to think of it?

If however you want a harder, more competence based assessment, well that is a different question altogether!

Posted By Peter Leese
Steve99, you wrote: The comments that I took offence at were:

"The H&S test for CSCS cards is a complete waste of time for people like us in the profession, it is an insult to the intelligence, and the whole system is a farce.
And, I have to say, supercilious remarks on this forum do not help make it any more sensible."

It is quite clear in my comment as quoted above, and from the originators initial input, that this discussion is about H&S professionals taking the H&S test. For your own reasons (which I'm not privy to) you are attempting to widen it out to the whole of the CSCS scheme.

I'm happy to leave it at:
1) The vote for joe H&S test is an insult to the intelligence of academically qualified H&S professionals who hold the Construction Certificate
2) That the list of academic qualifications giving exemption to the test should include the NEBOSH construction certificate (no matter when it was taken) or similar qualification.
3) That the standard of the test should be raised to ensure that all operatives have a thorough grounding in H&S on construction sites.

And to widen it just a little bit
4) That major contractors should insist on all operatives having a CSCS card (not just plant operatives)

We all know the reason why the major contractors don't insist on brickies, chippies etc having a card. It is because (and this is an indisputable fact) they would not be able to find enough operatives to man the sites.

So we have a system in place which can be ignored at will - hence my submission the system is a farce.

Posted By Robert K Lewis
At the end of the day the name Construction Skills Certification Scheme ("CSCS") says it all about the card. It is not and can never be evidence of comptence. We delude ourselves if we regard this as a neasure to provide a competent workforce on site. The little bit of H&S training required to pass the TST is just that - a very little bit of very basic knowledge.

Until the mapping exercise has been completed IOSH members will still be in the same position of needing to prove an NVQ, unless they already hold an appropriate one in a construction related area of work. The idea that the NEBOSH Construction cert. as the only current evidence for Occ. Safety and Health in construction is however derisable. IOSH have lost the plot and allowed the APS to take the running. The fault of this probably needs to lie at the feet of Council.

The whole issue of construction competence is now a very live issue with the CDM changes but Technical Committee have spent approximately 18 months producing a guide on the topic that is still far off completion. We need as an institution to wake up to the fact that as a charterd organisation we should be leading the thinking around issues of competence not meekly awaiting the next thoughts of the HSE. If we do not understand it who does?

Until we address the last point CSCS and APS will dominate all thinking concerning construction competence.

Bob

Posted By David S Burt
Robert.

While I totally agree with you that the APS has stolen the march on Safety in Construction, I have to say that I disagree that the fault lies at the feet of the IOSH Council.

The fault lies within the actual individual membership of IOSH who failed to respond in an effective way to the draft regulations relating to competence.

On the 22 June 2006 I made a posting on the open forum with the aim of raising some concern within the membership. Quote from part of my posting below

`I have placed a posting on the Internal Business Forum on this matter and I would urge all IOSH members who are involved with Construction as `defined in the CDM ACOP to read the postings and comment accordingly’.

On the 24 July I tried to rekindle some interest on this matter but once again the response was very poor. I did raise the point that perhaps Safety Professionals who work in construction are a minority group within IOSH.

If the Safety people who are now bleating on about failings had responded back in June 06 the IOSH Council would I feel have found the time to lobby to get the then draft regulations changed.

I am not a member of the Council and so I have no vested interest in defending them.

It is worth remembering that any Institute is only as good as its members.

Perhaps this is a case of the membership getting its just deserts.

Regards

A Civil Engineer with over 30 years experience, CEnv CMIOSH now not considered competent to be a co-ordinator under the new regime unless I join another organisation.

PS I do hold a Black CSCS Card and support the principles of the scheme. To get your card requires you to demonstrate that you are competent within your subject area. The H&S test is only a very very small part of the competence criteria that is applied to ALL Trades not just Health & Safety.

Posted By Robert K Lewis
David B

I think that Council does have to take a responsibility in its failure to take a real lead on the issue. The CDM and construction competence issues are but symptoms of a deeper malaise where we seem to constantly lag behind other organisations in our response to change. A technical guidance on Competence and Training has been floating around technical committee for over a year and we still have no output. As the relevant chartered body for OHS surely we are best placed to issue technical guidance in the absence of real HSE input. At least then perhaps the HSE could work with us as partners in setting these ideas out as best practice in much the same way as the accounting standards were developed and supported in the financial services sector.

Bob

Posted By Steve99Jones
David

As you have inferred, I do not believe that Construction Safety Matters are a particularly important issue for the vast majority of the IOSH membership, it is not an area in which they have much experience. Even those members who are involved in the construction industry, are often only involved on a part time or occasional basis.

That is why the likes of the APS have 'Stolen the march' on IOSH, just simply because they can focus on it and direct all of their resources to it, unlike IOSH.

Whilst many people often criticise the APS, they are at least focused and in my opinion have come a long way in the last few years.

Steve

Posted By Eddie Campbell
Oh dear!

The old CSCS scheme got a bit of a kicking there then!

I don’t seem to have helped the situation with my throwaway comments about not having had my card checked either I suppose!

For the sake of good order I should perhaps explain my position a little more clearly.

When I first learned that my qualifications did not entitle me to an automatic card issue I was just as upset as the first poster in this thread. In fact I was about to kick the idea in to touch when an old colleague reminded me that we all have to start on the road to competency somewhere.

Just because I had a few qualifications, it did not necessarily mean that I knew everything there was to know about construction health and safety. Even if I was so gifted I should still be leading by example and further, that if I was so confident of knowing my stuff so well then what did I have to worry about?

The test centre is a pleasant 5 minutes stroll for me and, living on the edge of the world as I do, people are few, and I did not have to wait more that 2 minutes to take the test. Unlike some of the posters here this was no real disruption to my day. As it was the day before the Christmas holiday shutdown there were no real client pressures either.

Having worked in a sector of the construction industry for many years I am acutely aware of the lack of knowledge, training and experience in some quarters. In some cases in the past this has led to some horrendous accidents. Anything that can be done to encourage the people on the front lines to take an interest in safety can only be a good thing.

Where I am currently in employment 100% of the operatives hold either a CSCS card, a CPCS card or both.

Some of our older hands felt aggrieved at taking the health and safety test as they are genuinely so well experienced and knowlegable. One or two of these chaps were not quite so chirpy after failing the test the first time round!

Some of the younger hands were a bit worried about taking the test but after some coaching and a little bit of in house training they sailed through and were pleased with their achievement. As with the older hands there were one or two failures with the fellows that “didn’t have time for reading the book”. Peer pressure helped to get those fellows through the test the second time without any hitches.

Not every client, big or small, asks for the cards. However I have come to the conclusion that the card system, flawed though it may be in some ways, is in fact a worthwhile step in the right direction and deserves all the encouragement we can provide to support the system with.

Eddie

Oh Clarke old chap I have a question for you!
To quote your posting: “Eddie you should get yourself some work with bigger more competent contractors, where you will see the are used more often.” Sic.

Let me know which of the contractors I work with are neither big enough nor competent enough so that I can part company from them and move on with my life!

Posted By Steve99Jones
Jason

Not really a catch 22 situation, you just haven't (I assume?) got the necessary level of experience at the grade you are going for.

If you were applying for card as an excavator operator, you wouldn't class your labouring or other works as being relevant experience for operating an excavator, so why should it count for the Managers card?

Don't get me wrong, I am not having a go at you, but this is one of the biggest problems with the CSCS scheme, all most people see and understand is the H&S Test, they then think that because they are already doing a job and have passed the H&S Test, that they should be entitled to the relevant card. Unfortunately life is not that simple and CSCS is about much (much!) more than just the H&S Test.

As I have mentioned above, the emphasise needs to be on the first two letters of the scheme, ie: 'CONSTRUCTION SKILLS CS' health and safety does not even appear in the title, so this should give people a massive clue that it does not matter what health and safety training and experience you have, you MUST have the relevant CONSTRUCTION experience as well.

I find it hard to understand why so many IOSH members find this so hard to comprehend.

As mentioned at the start, this is not against you Jason, you only need to read many of the above posting, or those on other CSCS threads to understand my frustration.

Anyway good luck.

Steve

Posted By Steve99Jones
Peter

No-one is saying that by taking the test your competence will improve, all it is doing is confirming that you have attained a minimum standard in Health and Safety, which should be easily attainable by IOSH members.

That would be like saying that by having my eyesight tested, my sight will improve! But the only way my sight will improve is if I invest in my sight, either by having laser correction, or by wearing contacts lens or glasses.

However, I think that there is a much more important reason to take the test, that is it demonstrates that you are part of the overall project team, it signifies that you are not better than anyone else and that are prepared to walk exactly the same line as everyone else on the site.

As I mentioned earlier, if you feel that a more challenging test is required in order to demonstrate your competence, then that is a different discussion altogether.

Posted By Steve99Jones
Basically NO!

Some of the (and I will use the phrase again - though it is not directed at anyone here) 'so called safety professionals' that have I have seen turn up on site, really do not have a clue, and yes Barry would notice this and care about it when, Mr H&S starts to preach at him.

Lets try and remember there are different disciplines within H&S and not all are suited too, or have the necessary knowledge to advise on construction safety matters. Also the H&S profession is so unregulated, that anyone can, and in my experience does practice as a H&S consultant. How many H&S consultants have you come across in your time who have set themselves up on the back of a 5 day managing safety, or CITB course, far too many for my liking.

Personally, I do not agree with any of the exceptions, but I can understand why CITB have granted an exemption for those with a 'recent' construction certificate - rightly or wrongly.