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#1 Posted : 04 March 2007 00:10:00(UTC)
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Posted By Roger Bragg
What are the distinguishing features of risk assessments, method statements and safe systems of work? How are they linked and how do they differ? Are they all part of the same continuum?

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#2 Posted : 04 March 2007 09:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By Charley Farley-Trelawney
Roger

There has been some good postings on this subject recently; run some searches and you will find quite a bit.
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#3 Posted : 04 March 2007 19:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
A Method Statement is an annotated Safe System of Work and vice versa. A Risk Assessment is a formal process of identifying and recording the significant risks and the control measures arising from an activity.

Ray

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#4 Posted : 04 March 2007 19:43:00(UTC)
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
The normal method of producing a method statement is to record what work is to be done, where, by whom and more importantly, how it is to be done.

A risk assessment is normally attached to a method statement proving (in theory) the significant risks have been identified and are tolerable.
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#5 Posted : 05 March 2007 07:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By DaveW
"are they all part of the same continuum?"

I would say most definately; yes.

It won't be possible to compile an effective and appropriate method statement unless the risk has been assessed, hazards identified and controls put in place to minimise the risk and remove the hazards. The mechanism for doing this is the method statement or safe system of work.

This will include of course; details of the safe method of work along with additional control requirements such as appropriate equipment and PPE.

Risks identified as being unnacceptible via assessment will be controlled via the safe system of work.

I would say that "safe systems of work" are integral to risk assessment control mechanism.
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#6 Posted : 05 March 2007 11:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Aidan Toner
This is my rant subject so I must try and stay focused. I do get cross about it all!!!

Should the starting point not be one whereby our leading professional body, IOSH, comes off the fence and attributes meaning (for better or worse) to these preceding terms and many other similar safety terms.
Complex professional debate(hopefully of some merit) can then develop simply because we all know what each other is actually talking about.
Sadly this forum and others like it where safety professionals attempt to communicate is weighed down with LANGUAGE confusion and misinterpretation.
Other professions such as medicine, accountancy and law all attribute meaning to their key words and phrases, why cant we.???
Any firmed up and agreed professional language DOES'NT have to be %100 shared with the great unwashed public or by other professions.(It would however be incumbent on all of us professionals to promote this language such that ,in time, it does becomes mainstream).

Come on IOSH, a united safety language for a united safety profession should be one of our key aims.
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#7 Posted : 05 March 2007 11:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jim Walker
Roger,

Can you get hold of Allan St Johns "principles"

Available from IOSH

Sets it (them) out in clear terms for me.

Aidan, Maybe you might want to read it too
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#8 Posted : 05 March 2007 11:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jim Walker
Sorry! Allan,

I meant Allan St John Holt's
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#9 Posted : 05 March 2007 13:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andy Brazier
Whilst not providing a definition of the terms, maybe considering how these items are used in practice may help understanding. This is how I understand the sequence of events. Anye care to comment?

*Define the task + identify where it is to be carried out.

*Identify the hazards and potential hazards (activity + location).

*Assess the risks.

*Remove hazards and reassess risks.

*Implement physical barriers and reassess risks.

*For remaining hazards that cannot be totally controlled by physical barriers, develop safe system of work that defines how activity is to be performed and hence what tools, equipment, competencies, procedures and supervision are required.

*Confirm that safe system of work is practical and will achieve risks that are tolerable and/or as low as reasonably practicable.

*Develop method statement that describes what the people involved in the activity are going to do.

*Ensure all other elements of the safe system of work are in place (i.e. things not covered by the method statement because they are either not activities or are not performed by the people involved in the activity).

*Do the work.

It sounds long winded, but the degree of rigour should be relative to the risk.

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#10 Posted : 05 March 2007 17:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By Aidan Toner
Yes,
I'm familiar with Allan St John Holts book.It's a fine book but sadly it deals in safety terms and terminology AS DEVISED AND UNDERSTOOD BY Allan St JH. -
Has IOSH deemed his terminology to be the definitive OFFICIAL safety language of IOSH and the safety profession.
I think IOSH has done no such thing.!!!!!
The process of deriving and outlining common meaning is a difficult but not impossible task. The task requires two inputs from a leading professional body which purports to serve its members.
(1)Hard Work-To research and consult widely on what the safety language might be.
(2)Courage -To opt for a 'best fit' language, publicise it and use it thereafter in a disciplined manner.

Maybe IOSH is not yet up to the task.???
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#11 Posted : 05 March 2007 17:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Packham
Andy

May I add two items to your list, particularly where we are looking at hazards from chemicals?

- Monitor to see if your safe working practices are actually working as you intended.

- Health surveillance to ensure that should a problem arise this is identified at the earliest possible stage and appropriate action taken to minimise any consequences.

Chris
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#12 Posted : 06 March 2007 11:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Tabs
Aiden, instead of getting cross and ranting, maybe you could get further by engaging IOSH and others? Just an observation.

What are your suggestions and how do they differ from those being quoted to help Roger?

Personally I don't need IOSH to act as lexicographers, it is not that difficult to spot the differences between our tools once you have used them a few times. Roger just needs to use them a while and he will develop his own understanding, I'm sure.

But I hope that the answers given by others above have helped you, Roger.

When I read a submission by a contractor I am less worried by the title on the page than by the whole approach - and practicality - of the submission.

I have seen some imaginative combination documents that suit the jobs far better than formulaic approaches from others.

Look at the whole submission and reassure yourself that they understand the site, the job, the people, and the expectations.
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#13 Posted : 06 March 2007 11:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By Allan St.John Holt
Aidan,

You're absolutely right - they're all me own work. As you say, there is no common definition that everybody is happy with, and that's why authors often do the right thing by stating their own terms in the way that they will then use them (hopefully) consistently throughout their work.

I remember well a similar debate within ASSE some years ago, when they produced a dictionary of accepted definitions. It took a long time, and even when published there was a lot of diagreement amongst the faithful about whether they had got it right after all their careful debating.

The outcome is of course the important thing. As long as there is no confusion, there should be no problem. But I do get worried when words like 'risk' and 'hazard' are interchanged as equivalents by 'professionals' - part of that comes from our normally sloppy use of language in normal conversation. You only have to think about the word 'inflammable' - what that means to the person on the Clapham omnibus is likely to be the complete opposite to what it means to the safety community. Does it really matter? I suspect not.

Allan
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#14 Posted : 14 March 2007 09:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Roger Bragg
Thanks everyone - very useful information and a lively debate.

//Roger.
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