Posted By DaveW Management Regs 99 sections 13 & 14 Responsibility of employers to provide appropriate training and information. Responsibility of employees to make best use of provisions including training. A difficult one Angela. How will his choosing to leave be constructive dismissal? Are his given reasons "reasonable"? If so, it must be the case that your current training provider is equally unsuitable for others. If not, then your forklift trick driver has no solid ground to stand on. On the other hand, there are plenty of training providers out there that might offer alternative source and all at generally competetive cost.

Posted By DaveW Absolutely Steve. Angela, Your fork truck driver might be shooting himself in the foot if your employers are satisfied that your current training provider has been shown via contractor assessment to be competent.

Posted By DaveW On the other hand of course, if your employer has failed to assess the competence of your current training provider then you have your handle for recommending such assessment and a possible tranfer to a more competent training provider.

Posted By Peter Leese And another view. Refresher training for FLT drivers is not a specific legal requirement - so how can it be construed the driver can no longer do his job? If this is purely a company rule it would certainly be arguable at a tribunal.

Posted By Jem Ask the employee to attend the training and complete a detailed feedback report on the quality of the training. This way you are involving the employee in a consultative nature.

Posted By DaveW Angela, I think that you have the practicable answers in your pocket already. Good luck.

Posted By Stupendous Man Surely if the company has satisfied itself that the trainer is competent, the FLT driver has no grounds to refuse the training.

Posted By steve e ashton OK - so in this instance there hasn't been a decent assessment of trainer competence - and evidence from FLT near misses etc suggests strongly a problem in this area. Then - I fully agree with you Angela. The guy has raised a legit concern, and you need to respond in an appropriate manner. Ignore my earlier response! (although in my own defence I did say 'if' a number of times....) Steve

Posted By Jem I think that it is important to point out that the root cause of an accident involving a FLT might not be due to the FLT driver. If you have had a number of accidents and near misses, an EHO might expect to see your investigations and root cause analysis. These investigations would also identify that the training provision was insufficient. Jem

Posted By Peter Leese On the limited evidence presented on this forum, and a refusal by one driver to attend refresher training (which isn't a legal requirement), the recommended decision will be to sack the current trainer. Mmmmmm. I get the feeling there is a lot we haven't been told. and that maybe, just maybe, we have a scapegoat to heap the problems on!!!!! Could it be there is an unrecognised culture problem? Dave, the 'qualified bodies' you talk about who strongly recommend refresher training, they're not training providers are they?

Posted By DaveW No Peter, they're not. I was thinking of The HSE and every other qualified OSH practitioner and consultant that I've ever discussed this issue with. ;-) Angela - I've emailed you.

Posted By DaveW Occasionally Peter. I'm "qualified" too Peter but I still defer to those better "qualified" than myself from time to time. I can't think of single training course I've ever been involved with or a single discussion with consutlants or HSE inspectors that I've ever had on this subject in which FLT Refresher Training has not been most strongly recommended. Also: having worked with FLT operators for the the last twenty years, I very clearly recognise the value of such training. FLT operators often seem to have a remarkably short memory when it comes to good operational procedure. Yes. there is difference between "a qualified body" and "a qualified individual within a qualified body". Might I refer you though to The HSE Improvement Notices details section and in particular those Improvement Notices regarding Fork Lift Trucks where the repeated requirement in summary is for "Refresher Training" of FLT Operaotors. It obviously carries some value in the eyes of some of the more important qualified bodies as it carries importance in my eyes when viewed as subsequent to simple and practical experience of FLT Operators and their apparent chronic memory loss problems.

Posted By Peter Leese Just look at the facts - refresher training every three years is simply not working in the scenario being discussed. Doesn't this suggest a deeper cause. So instead of accepting unquestionably the need for refresher training at fixed intervals - let's move on from there and get to the bottom of it. Personally I'd be looking at morale, attitude, discipline, working conditions and other work issues before putting my salary on refresher training.

Posted By Ron Young Maybe if your FLT accident rate is so high, there may be other issues to consider. Are you using the correct FLT for the area they operate in? e.g. FLT's too large for space provided. Are the drivers following laid down procedures? e.g. speed limits. Are procedures made known? e.g. signage. Are managers addressing identified non-conformances of drivers? Complacency of drivers e.g. couldn't care less attitude?

Posted By DaveW Did I mention "at set intervals"? my apologies if I did Peter. Yes you're absolutely correct Peter, the need for regular refresher training does suggest a deeper cause, unfortunately I (and I suspect many others in my position) operate under constraints (managerial and operational) that are immediately beyond our direct control, constraints that we equally continually seek to address. The nature of the industry that I operate within and the nature of a large majority of employees within that industry results in a scenario where I find that it is the interests of all concerned to perform "refresher training" for all mobile plant operators at least once in every two year period or whenever observed operational practices dictate that refresher training might be required. This; on top of continual monitoring, instruction and advice via a variety of methods, given to operators on a very regular basis. I wish that I did operate within a perfect industry with perfect MD's and perfect employees, unfortunately I don't and I have to accomodate that at this stage.

Posted By Angela Hayden Donk - I agree this would be the way to go, but I have never driven (nor have any desire to) a FLT so would not be able to effectively decide on his training delivery/competence. I will however, be asking other members of staff who have received training from him to see what their opinion was.

Posted By peter gotch Hi Angela, In my experience if qualified FLT drivers are not adequately supervised, then the drivers quickly pick up bad habits. Once accompanied Minister responsible for H&S [and entourage] round factory. Went into wash hall to look at plant. FLT driver weaved skillfully through the crowd. Had vision of front page of Daily Record. "Chairman of Conservative Party [since 3 days previously] killed in factory visit in front of HSE Inacpector" Thought - I know this driver is qualified. They even have two on site qualified trainers. First item in training - if there's a pedestrian in the way you stop and wait for them to move. May be you should be assessing whether managers and supervisors are competent to be considering whether FLT drivers are sticking to basic rules. Regards, Peter

Posted By TBC Do you have such a thing as the 2 metre rule? As well as sounding the horn to let pedestrians know you are around, giving way etc whilst driving your FLT. Many companies have a 'Two metre rule' which means that you may approach but stop at two metres if no eye contact has been made. You may pass only if eye contact has been made and some gesture as to what you both intend to do regarding passing each other, but pedestrians always have right-of-way. You don't have to be two metres apart when passing after eye contact if your tight for space.

Posted By DaveW Peter, There are those industries that rely strongly upon a workforce consisting of highly self motivated, highly qualified and arguably highly intelligent professionals as their functioning basis. At completely the other end of the spectrum there are those industries that rely largely upon less self motivated, less well qualified and arguably less able individuals as integral to their functioning basis. Unfortunately, in the real world, this is a fundemental fact of life. There are of course a huge spectrum of combinations of these two extremes within UK industry. I'm very fortunate to have the challenge of working largely at the latter end of this spectrum. Whilst I enjoy the challenge of attempting to develop self motivation, practical and acedemic qualification and personal achievement amongst individuals who, subsequent to social background, might be considered less self motivated, less well educated and less fortunate in their personal achievements than some "professionals", I do, at the same time have to recognise the real practicalities of this challenge. The South Derbyshire Working Mens clubs and Drug Rehabilitiaion Centers do not on the whole cater to the same social and acedemic structure as the clubs and bars of the Inns of Court or the Chancery Temple. "the nature of a large majority of employees within that industry" refers to the former rather than the latter. The employees that I work with, more often than not, have not had the benefit of a social background that has encouraged them to achieve, they have not generally had the benefit of a good basic aducation let a lone a good university education, they have generally left school at the age of fidteen or sixteen with few if any formal qualifications. I seek to offer them some of the self motivation that they have not been offered along with the opportunity to also achieve acedemically where they have so far been ubable to do so.

Posted By Peter Leese Dave, what can I say, we are worlds apart. I just treat people as equals, no matter their background, and I can't see what you are getting at. I certainly don't see LT drivers per se as being a separate section of people with a different culture. But I do look at 'individual' work situations. I wouldn't dream of putting in blanket procedures like refresher training for all at three yearly intervals when clearly people have different competencies - some may need it some may not.