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Posted By Crim
My kids are going on a school trip with the theme "transport the way it used to be" to the local transport museum. The main transport for the day is an old fashioned double decker bus, you know the type - open rear corner, with no seat belts.
My question is about the seat belt rule, the owner says his vehicle is exempt from the seat belt regs therefore all is OK. Is he right? If so should the LEA still require seat belts on all transport used for school trips.
The kids are age 5/6
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Posted By Crim
Thanks Mitch,
Now I wuld like to know the current rules regarding the fitting of seat belts to buses?
Any offers?
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Posted By Crim
Thanks Brian.
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Posted By jackw.
Hi all, as far as I am aware all buses, mini buses etc. transporting children must be fitted with seat belts. Re the specific question it is my understanding that "old" vintage buses do not requires these for show/display purposes but I am not 100% certain re taking it out on a public road. Suggest you contact your local traffic police for advice.
Cheers.
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Posted By The toecap
I would suggest that if you are of any doubt don't let them go.
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Posted By Crim
Hi Toecap
The problem with your suggestion is it would discriminate my daughter who already has a disability and the school are doing very well in including her.
If she doesn't go on the trip she will be the only one.
I could take time off and transport her myself but that will take away the fun side of the trip.
All I am trying to do here is find out if it's legal.
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Posted By Clare Gabriel
Well just a suggestion why not share the information with the school so your daughter is not discriminated against? All schools are required to complete a risk assessment for the trip on which your daughter is going - the fact they have identified there are not seat belts is odd and that then they still allow the bus trip to go ahead!!!
Write formally to the school head/teacher raising your concerns - duty of care as a parent...also now you have raised this issue with the school they should be duty bound to act - stop the bus trip but allow the trip to the transport museum.
Equally if your daughter is disabled the school surely has an increased duty of care to accommodate her disability?
Just a few thoughts
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Posted By Sally
I would agree with the suggestion to talk to your local police road safety adviser. I know it is generally accepted that all buses carrying children should have seatbelts but service buses don't and they are used for transport to and from school, so there are exceptions.
To be honest I would also concentrate on whether you think its safe - and in this case I would suggest that it is if it's only a short journey at low speeds (and I'm guessing these vintage buses don't do fast!!)then relative to lots of other things it is.
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Posted By Andy Brazier
I am interested to understand why the question is whether it is legal or not. I would have thought as a parent the question you need to answer is how does the lack of seatbelts increase the risk and do the benefits of riding on an old bus outweigh the additional risks? Also, as Sally said, if the journey is short and slow, I would doubt the lack of seatbelts would affect the risk to any great extent.
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Posted By Crim
All suggestions are relevant and interesting, Could anyone advise on what speed you have to travel to be thrown off a seat and bang your face on the rear of the seat in front.
Surely seatbelts should be used - and fitted if not already.
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Posted By Brian Dawson
'I could take time off and transport her myself but that will take away the fun side of the trip.'
I wouldn't be surprised if travelling with seat belts in a car is higher risk than travelling in a double decker without.
On my daily commute by double decker there are a hell of a lot of kids and not a belt in sight.
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Posted By Bob Youel
I deal with many special needs children and adults so I have lots of experience in this area -
Its not legal to kill and injure yet there are around 277 [last few years average]children killed PA crossing the road and many thousands hurt
To my knowledge there has not been one child reported as being killed nor badly hurt whilst being on a bus of this type nor any other bus in average situations over many few years -
Its much safer travelling by bus than private car so put the child on the safest mode of transport and let them enjoy the day as they are probably at more risk getting to the bus that being sat on it
is it the point yet again that H&S is being used to justify a persons indecision?
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Posted By Pete48
Crim, I suggest you re-read the recent articles and publicity around sensible risk management and then try to apply it to your very personal situation.
All school trips have to be risk assessed and there is a competent person who advises on such matters either within the school or via the local council or LEA.
If you have any matters you wish to discuss I am sure the school would be happy to do so.
Personally I would not be overly worried if it were my grandchild and I have no idea what the law does or does not say about seat belts in heritage buses. Is there a risk, of course there is, is it acceptable? I would think most would say yes as long as it is in a controlled environment, limited to minimum required to gain the benefit of the experience etc.
Given the personal circumstances you outline and dependant on the exact nature of that, I would also expect the school to have considered this in their assessment and I might want to satisfy myself as to any extra precautions indicated.
Theory and principle are all well and good, but as your post indicates, it is sometimes a little more difficult when there is an emotional element to the decision?
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Posted By Crim
Thanks to everyone who has contributed.
We received further info from the school yesterday which suggests the vehicle is deemed safe by the LEA and speed limited to 30 mph. Driver empoyed by the LEA with lots of experience, vetted etc.
I'll just keep my fingers crossed on the day.
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Posted By Martin C
Just a short anecdote regarding open rear entry buses.
I travelled to school on these types of buses for years. One day at one stop the last person on was a boy of about 12. He went up the stairs to the top deck as the bus started off. Immediately after the stop was a roundabout so the bus went sharp left then right. As it went right there was a yelp and a banging and the boy who was on the stairs rolled backwards down them and off the bus. The conductor frantically rang the bell and the driver stopped. The boy was on his feet by this point apparently unhurt and returned to the bus and continued his journey. In seven years of travelling to school by bus, 5 miles each way in a city, I never saw any other incident.
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Posted By ian mcnally
Crim, I understand your concerns,
I have a 6 & 8 year old at school. I spent a number of my school years using rear entry DD busses and remember running and jumping on the back when the bus commenced a slow ascent of a steep hill. It was great fun and of course potentially deadly but of we all know that children don’t always apply a measured / boring approach to activities.
Some of the more street wise conductors made sure they were at the back of the bus to prevent such antics. I also remember some of the conductors were very strict about making sure us kids were in our seats before tugging the bell. This simple but effective control could/should and perhaps might be in place for this trip, but perhaps you might establish what controls are planned, maybe BRAKE could offer some advise?. As to the seatbelts we know not wearing one increases the risk but perhaps if this bus ride is on private grounds or will be on a remote route these risk factors can be reduced to an acceptable level – whatever acceptable means and to whom.
I’m not convinced every school carries out suitable risk assessments for school trips or much else to be honest. 18 months ago our school sent a letter prior to a farm trip, asking the parents if we would allow our children to have unpasteurised milk. Before I was into safety I probably wouldn’t have given it a second thought but with a greater understanding of the potential problems I said no to the option and felt a bit of a mean so and so, it turned out I wasn’t in the minority. I suspect some reading this will think this is over the top. A recent farm trip at a school resulted in a couple of children becoming very poorly, and one child also passed it on to members of their family who were also very sick and were off work for some time. I understand the farm owners felt terrible about it. I guess the message is sensible risk management should always be applied, it doesn't have to mean stop everything cos of elf n safety!
I feel Crim is quite right to raise the profile.
Most schools do try to operate an inclusive policy and I’m sure will do all they can to accommodate every child.
Good luck, I don’t envy you as you may get a prickly reception when you raise the dreaded words “Risk Assessment” you may have to try the how can I help approach but I doubt you will be welcomed with open arms.
Good game!
Ian
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