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#1 Posted : 20 March 2007 14:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By John-Mark Does anyone have details of suppliers of Personal CO2 Gas Monitors, for use in places like Pub Cellars etc? JM
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#2 Posted : 20 March 2007 14:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Martin C CO2 is an asphyxiant. Provided there is sufficient oxygen then there should be no problem. Oxygen level monitors are easy to find. Some beers are pressurised with nitrogen so the oxygen monitoring route would be more sensible.
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#3 Posted : 20 March 2007 15:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jane Blunt I would recommend a proper CO2 monitor (Internet search engine should give you some pointers). While carbon dioxide would be an asphyxiant, it is actually toxic in its own right, and the BOC booklet on cryogens suggests that it is likely to be fatal at a concentration of 9% after about four hours. A concentration of 9% carbon dioxide would reduce the level of oxygen to around 19% (if my arithmetic is correct). Therefore, although an oxygen monitor, set to go off at 19.5% might be helpful, I would prefer the carbon dioxide monitor. Jane
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#4 Posted : 20 March 2007 16:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By Descarte You can get multi gas readers which do both
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#5 Posted : 21 March 2007 13:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Swift Try Safety Provider at www.safetyprovider.co.uk. They do a reasonable range of multi- and single gas detectors.
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#6 Posted : 21 March 2007 15:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter Jane While I am fully aware of the asphyxiant properties of of carbon dioxide, I am not familiar with the toxic effects; please elaborate. Paul
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#7 Posted : 22 March 2007 07:44:00(UTC)
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Posted By jom Yes, I'd like to know more about the toxic angle. We all have CO2 in our bloodstream all the time. J.
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#8 Posted : 22 March 2007 08:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jane Blunt It came as news to me as well when I first heard it. Figures on its toxicity vary a lot, probably because it appears that the partial pressure of oxygen in the atmosphere is also a factor (if the oxygen level is maintained the outcome appears more favourable), but there are two articles here that are quite informative: http://www.ccohs.ca/osha...n_dioxide/health_cd.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide If you recall in Apollo 13 the astronauts had to make a contraption out of gaffer tape and other oddments to adapt the lithium hydroxide 'scrubbers' so that they could keep the carbon dioxide level down. Although they had enough canisters, the ones for the LM were a different shape from the others and they had to make an adapter. Jane
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#9 Posted : 22 March 2007 08:44:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter Thanks, Jane I'm not convinced, though; if the reported toxic effects are actually due to reduced oxygen levels that does not necessarily mean that CO2 is toxic. Paul
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#10 Posted : 22 March 2007 08:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jane Blunt One simple way of looking at this is to compare carbon dioxide with a simple asphyxiant such as nitrogen. It is said that 10% carbon dioxide will cause serious symptoms, possibly death if exposed for some time. If this 10% carbon dioxide has displaced 10% of the air in a room it only brings the oxygen level down to between 18 and 19%. A similar mixture of 10% nitrogen displacing air is not liable to render people unconscious. Therefore carbon dioxide appears to be more than a simple asphyxiant. Jane
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#11 Posted : 22 March 2007 10:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By Descarte I think it is to do with how readily it binds to the hoemoglobin in the blood (binding coeficient) however I only thought that this was a problem with carbon monoxide as this can bind more readily than oxygen, or is harder for the body to remove.
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#12 Posted : 22 March 2007 15:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Oliver Contact a local tool hire centre (Hewden, Speedy, HSS, etc) and they will be able to provide you with correct monitor applicable to your work area, they will also look after calibration ,servicing, etc. Far easier than maintaining them yourself.
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#13 Posted : 22 March 2007 15:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andrew Wilson JM, We use similar equipment on our sites and our supplier is BW Technologies who supply a wide range of Gas Moniotrs, personal, portable and static. Web address is: www.gasmonitors.com Hope this is of some help
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#14 Posted : 23 March 2007 08:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jim Walker A further point: In my opinion, the monitors (or the sampling bit at least) ought to be installed in the confined space so they would warn people not to enter. One carried on the person is giving a warning far too late if the O2 level is low, or there is a high level of toxic gas.
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#15 Posted : 23 March 2007 10:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By Diane Thomason Jane is spot on; CO2 is toxic in its own right, it is NOT just an asphyxiant. There is a lot of confusion about this with many people believing that CO2 works as a simple asphyxiant. It has a WEL of 5000ppm. At 5-10% you would feel tired, with laboured breathing, get headaches, tinnitus, impaired vision and become confused - unconsciousness could then follow. This is due to toxic effects of CO2 and NOT lack of oxygen. Toxic effects from CO2 can occur when there is still plenty of oxygen in the atmosphere, i.e. a concentration of oxygen that would still be safe if the CO2 was not elevated. In a typical situation, if CO2 became elevated to 4% - a hazardous level - the oxygen would still be 20%, a perfectly safe level of oxygen that would not set off an oxygen depletion monitor. Jim is spot on too - monitor the area to prevent people ENTERING a hazardous are; rather than provide personal monitors that tell people that they are already in one! I've produced some guidance on this, if anyone's interested just email me. Diane
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#16 Posted : 23 March 2007 11:12:00(UTC)
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Posted By John-Mark Hi everyone, Many thanks for your responses so far. Some interesting comments there. I've contacted all of the companies listed, and noted the other comments. I would say that the monitors are likely to be most used when inspecting pub cellars - many of which have Cellar Guard systems which detect CO2 levels. The personal monitors were considered as a back up. The alternative would be to say that we wouldn't enter a cellar that didn't have monitors installed. Diane, I wouldn't mind a copy of the guidance you've written. JM
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#17 Posted : 23 March 2007 11:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Marcus74 Try here: http://www.crowcon.com/ We have just ordered CO monitors from this company for exhaust extraction but you can specify the type/amount of gasses you want the hand helds to monitor. I believe Oxygen and CO2 are on the list.
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